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ADF Serials Message Board > Navy Aircraft - Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm > Oz F-35bs On Oz Lhds Potential


Posted by: Luig May 17 2014, 05:38 AM
Jump jets on Defence radar 17 May 2014 Nick Butterly, Canberra, The West Australian

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/national/a/23583014/jump-jets-on-defence-radar/

"Australia could buy "jump-jet" Joint Strike Fighters to base aboard new landing ships, giving the nation its first aircraft carrier since the early 1980s.

Defence Minister David Johnston told The Weekend West the Government was considering buying the "B" model of the F-35 - a specialised variant of the stealth jet being built to operate from aircraft carriers.

Last month, Australia committed to buying 72 of the conventional model F-35s from US aircraft manufacturer Lockheed Martin at a cost of almost $20 billion.

But the Government has left the door open to buying more F-35s and the minister says the F-35B will be considered.

"Now that aircraft is more expensive, does not have the range but it's an option that has been considered from day one," Senator Johnston said.

The F-35B has a shortened take-off distance and can land vertically, just like the legendary Harrier jump jet.

The British Navy and the US Marines are buying the F-35B to station aboard aircraft carriers.

Australia is soon to bring into service two large ships called landing helicopter docks. Though they resemble small aircraft carriers, the Government has maintained until now they would be used only to deploy helicopters and troops.

Senator Johnston said stationing the F-35 aboard an LHD would be costly and technically challenging, but it could be done. [Not a bad idea given the LHD was designed by the Spanish to operate the F-35B!]

"The deck strength is there for such an aircraft," he said.

The Hawke government mothballed [frickin' sold it you dummy] Australia's last aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, in 1982.

Commissioning an aircraft carrier is considered a significant strategic statement of military might by a country.

China recently launched its first aircraft carrier. The sea trials are being watched closely.

The F-35B has less range than the conventional F-35 owing to the complex systems of jets used to allow it to land vertically.

The B variant has been the most trouble-plagued of the three F-35 models. Testing was stalled this year after cracks were discovered in the aircrafts' bulkheads. [This is ground stress testing of airframe - flight ops fine.]

The F-35 will replace Australia's fleet of F/A-18A/B Classic Hornet aircraft, due to be withdrawn in 2022."

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug May 17 2014, 02:09 PM
QUOTE
Senator Johnston said stationing the F-35 aboard an LHD would be costly and technically challenging, but it could be done.


I really wonder how many auxiliary staff are needed to operate one F-35B? I mean you have to have:

Mechanics,

Electricians ,

Ordnance handling (attaching and storing),

Fire fighting, although that should already be there for the helos,

Refueling - the F-35B has a fuel capacity of 13,100 litres compared to say our MRH 90 helos which have a fuel capacity of 9,084 litres. I tried but I couldn't find out how much aviation fuel is stored aboard the new Canberra class LHDs.

"Shooters" (yellow shirts on US A/C carriers) that direct the aircraft into take off position and then give the take off signal.

White shirts = Air wing quality control personnel, Squadron plane inspectors, Landing
Signal Officer (LSO),Air Transfer Officers (ATO), Liquid Oxygen (LOX) crews, Safety Observers, Medical personnel.

Blue - Plane Handlers, Aircraft elevator Operators, Tractor Drivers, Messengers and Phone Talkers.

As the new LHDs don't have catapults or arresting wires we won't have to do what the majority of what the "green guys" in the US Navy do which is Catapult and arresting gear handling, Air wing maintenance personnel, Cargo-handling personnel, Ground Support Equipment (GSE) troubleshooter. Hook runners, Photographer's Mates, Helicopter landing signal enlisted personnel (LSE).

I would love to see us return to having a fixed wing aircraft navy however to train all these people in the position listed above from zero to Fully Operational is going to cost I would ASSUME $100s of million of $dollars and I don't think either Labour or the Liberals would sign off on it with our Budget deficit at the moment.

Also what would be the military doctrine of these new LHDs if we had F-35Bs? Would we just be playing mini carrier games in the north of Australia with other US Marine Corp LHDs (like Exercise Talisman Saber) or would they travel around and participate in exercises like RIMPAC or would we actually deploy them to hot zones around the world? These are all rhetorical questions I quasi-guess. See pic at bottom of our Blackhawks on the USS Boxer. However I would also love to see us possibly use other Marine Corp aircraft that they use on US Navy LHDs such as the MV-22 or buy a couple of Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallions which have a better range, capacity and greater lift than our CH-47Fs.

PS I'm just grinding your gears Luig however weren't you over talking about the F-35B and the new LHDs? laugh.gif


Posted by: Luig May 17 2014, 03:03 PM
I'm over going over the same ground again and again. It is tiresome and it has been a long time since ANY politician expressed ANY interest in having F-35Bs on LHDs. If you have not cottoned on to this 'fact'. The politicians make the final say on everything. As a matter of fact here is a link to a recent radio talk where much of this 'who decides' in Oz is explained. So go download and listen.

Australia's Defence and the Strike Fighter Purchase 09may2014.mp3
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18877 (.MP3 2.6Mb)
________________________

Meanwhile here is a factoid recently disputed by none other than Prof Hugh White. I'm not sure why he said what he said but anyway here is what the DMO says happens to monies for new F-35A purchases....

Defence Portfolio Budget Statements 2014-15 Defence Materiel Organisation page 158
http://www.defence.gov.au/budget/14-15/pbs/2014-2015_Defence_PBS_04_DMO.pdf (0.7Mb)

QUOTE
“...Joint Strike Fighter | Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft - AIR 6000 Phase 2A/B
Prime Contractor: Lockheed Martin is contracted to the United States Government for the development and production of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). Australia is procuring the aircraft through a government-to-government agreement.

      This project is approved to acquire 72 JSF aircraft and supporting elements to form three operational squadrons and one training squadron. This comprises 14 aircraft approved in 2009 and 58 approved in April 2014. The funding for the recently approved 58 aircraft and associated elements will be transferred to the DMO post the 2014-15 budget.

      During 2014-15 production of Australia’s first two JSF Aircraft will be completed at the Lockheed Martin facility in Fort Worth Texas. The aircraft will then be ferried to the International Pilot Training Centre at Luke Air Force Base, Arizona to support the commencement of Australian pilot training.

      Some of the major risks for the project include the establishment of an electronic warfare reprogramming capability [ACURL mentioned above] and the stand up of sustainment systems and facilities required to support Australian operations....”

___________

And here is a decade old report on this topic for the then Parliamentarians responsible for it in Fed Parliament.....

QUOTE
Australia’s Maritime Strategy Jun 2004

"...5.70 The Government is not required to commit to the purchase of the F-35 until 2006. The Government should give consideration to purchasing some short take-off and vertical landing aircraft (STOVL).
&
Conclusions
5.86 As part of the inquiry, the key maritime capabilities that were examined include amphibious lift, the protection and capability provided through the provision of air warfare destroyers, and the capability provided through an aircraft carrier. In addition, while the role of the Collins Class submarines was not discussed in detail, the committee fully supports the ongoing role provided through submarine capability.

5.87 The proposed acquisition of three air warfare destroyers is fully supported. These will provide a high level of protection against air attack and ensure Australian forces are adequately protected. The only concern is that the air warfare destroyers will not become available until about 2013.

The Government should explain what alternative type of area protection it will provide particularly for disembarking land forces.

5.88 In the previous conclusions, the committee suggested that if the Government, in 2006, confirms the decision to purchase the F-35, it should consider purchasing some short take-off and vertical landing aircraft (STOVL). This could provide the ADF with some organic air cover while it is engaged in regional operations. It is assumed that the F-35 STOVL version will be able to meet its design specifications. The committee is aware of reports that the STOVL version is subject to weight problems.

5.89 In relation to maritime surveillance, the impending use of uninhabited air vehicles (UAVs) such as Global Hawk is fully supported. This type of capability offers real advances in efficiency and surveillance time.

Recommendation 8
5.90 The Government’s decision to purchase three air warfare destroyers for delivery by about 2013 is supported.

The Department of Defence, however, should explain how adequate air protection will be provided to land and naval forces before the air warfare destroyers are delivered in 2013.

Recommendation 9
5.91 If in 2006 the Government confirms that it will purchase the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35) then it should consider purchasing some short take-off and vertical landing (STOVL) F-35 variants for the provision of organic air cover as part of regional operations...."

SOURCE: http://www.aph.gov.au/parliamentary_business/committees/house_of_representatives_committees?url=jfadt/maritime/report/report.pdf (0.8Mb)

______________

Now back to the beginning one more time. The LHD for Oz is more or less the same as the original Spanish LHD - especially on the outside. The LHDs are quite capable of operating F-35Bs with suitable deck cover / paint material which is now readily available. However DO NOT IMAGINE any LHD as an ersatz Aircraft Carrier. IT IS NOT. Read the 2004 report. I'll post a link to some now slightly outdated but still relevant RAN LHD material in a PDF online:

Look in the 'Documents & Videos Various' folder on the 'SpazSinbad' OneDrive page here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6%21116

For two PDFs with names beginning with 'LHD...' (both around 35Mb). Now that there is renewed interest I'll updates these PDFs but not sure when. Also GoogleDrive may have some material - I'll look...

Similarly on the SpazSinbad page on GoogleDrive in the ''folder will be an LHD pdf "LHD+F-35BinfoJan2013pp123.pdf" same as on OneDrive.

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0BwBlvCQ7o4F_aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U
__________________

Of course doctrine will change if we do buy some F-35Bs. Again I stress these will/should be used sparingly on LHDs as required and not as one may imagine an aircraft carrier with dedicated fixed wing assets. When not on LHDs in transit these marvellous F-35Bs will be hop skipping and jumping around northern Australia, being everywhere and nowhere, and certainly not an any fixed base for any length of time. No worries about missiles hitting hardened shelters because the F-35Bs will be elsewhere - not even on a bare base - but elsewhere. Perhaps on LHDs on the high seas. Go figure. :-)

Posted by: Luig May 17 2014, 03:27 PM
One item in the superbug list earlier is not required. LOX is not an issue as like most modern miljets the F-35 family have OBOGGs OnBoard Oxgen Generating Capacity that does not emulate the problems discovered with the F-22 system over the last several years.

Training for the new LHDs has been ongoing for several years now at a dedicated facility in the eastern suburbs - a lot of virtual reality training there also - as well as a dummy deck at NAS Nowra for the new/old rate of "Aircraft Handlers" to become reaccustomed to their exacting craft.

Anyway again I'll stress - all is supposition so far. Changes can be made to our LHDs in a refit cycle - if required - to allow F-35Bs on our LHDs for a short time. [The Spanish LHD requires some internal changes that are designed to be made easily for the four roles they have outlined including acting as a mini aircraft carrier for F-35Bs (and at moment only Harriers)]. Ships are changed in refit all the time. HMAS Melbourne the aircraft carrier had many improvements over the 25 year life she had.

Imagine a transit to an island such as Fiji where Oz citizens need rescuing. Parking an LHD offshore with helos and an odd F-35B onboard would be intimidating? NO? HMAS Melbourne the aircraft carrier used to visit Fiji regularly back and forth between engagements up north and SEA and the odd side trip to the West Coast USofA.

Sheesh we could even intimidate the sheep in New Zealand with our LHDs outfitted with a few F-35Bs! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Warhawk May 17 2014, 08:10 PM
Wonderful.

You know it could be a part of zee master plan to reduce the new SEA 1000 numbers to a more manageable "one for one" replacement,ala "Off the shelf in bipartisan production" (They build them, we paint them) with the Swedes ( Providing one for one Swedish temporary worker and a Blonde Bombshell Swedish Bird immigrant) or the Nipponese( now there's FTA, and new diet legislation).

Then the bucks saved, could be to re-introduce on-board Fighters to rebalance the NAVY FAA or ok, reality check here,.....for the Blue Boys,..Pelican Fleet Co-op No 9 Sqn RAAF re-born so that they can fly top cover for the Army's 4 on-board LPD based ARH Helios.

Perhaps, like the USN,..they can have their Unit nickname on the jets,.." the Shagbags",..sort of a port of call or final combat outcome catchcry?

Seriously,....though I joke above,....it may be more acceptable then frightening our greatest trade partner with 12 new NG Subs, at half the cost, yet opening up more options and less risk for the government at a fraction of the cost for only having to purchase say 16 jets max (8 IE/ 4 IT/ 4 IR) and their support,..with a few mods per weapon storage, painting of take-off strips and support per the LPH. Just have to get 1000lb Bombs rather then 2000lb Bombs to fit.Guess that's why the espanards retired their young carrier (1990's built)and use the LPH now for AV-8B Plus Harrier ops. (Aside from the lack of bucks)

Rumours in Defence already murmur a reduction of New Generation Sub hulls from 12 stated by the previous government, so it could be a hatching of a thought bubble.

Mind you,..even I can't see it "floated" for a decade or more due to the current economic outlook and public outcry of the last budget. Close of Production of the F-35 Family is set at 2039,..so patience,. Plenty of time. Not too sure of the Life of the LPHs,.......about 35 years old seems to be the limit. 2045-2050AD.

Just in time to sail past Manus Island for a "show of force" flight for the next riot ,.....perhaps ohmy.gif

LOL
Gordy

Posted by: Luig May 18 2014, 12:15 AM
Gordy, the flat deck ships in both the Spanish Navy and RAN are LHDs. Yes - still many rivers to cross before we see any Oz F-35Bs on our LHDs and they will be in our far future for sure if purchased. This rubbish about budgets is just that. Rubbish. If we need 'em - we will get 'em. As indicated these 'F-35Bs' will be most useful distributing themselves around the top end mostly on a daily basis - where they end up on a daily basis - no one will know. Quite a shell game compared to any fixed based F-35As up that way. Do we want to play however? That is the question.

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 18 2014, 12:36 AM
Brightest news for 30 years ... put a smile on my face at last, hold on though I am not that young anymore - might kick the bucket before they enter service....

Better not have Airforce stickers on them though or I will kick the bucket

Posted by: Luig May 18 2014, 06:16 AM
Heheh. I will have lost the will to live IF ONLY RAAF pilots get to fly them F-35Bs from our LHDs. cool.gif I'll accept a setup such as the UK has with RN/RAF co-op.

BUT IF the only way we / Oz can get some F-35Bs WITH ONLY THE RAAF to fly them then so be it. I'll just go outside - I may be some time. rolleyes.gif

Anyway as I have mentioned several times now - most use of the Bs is up North playing hide n seek with opposing missile batteries (whenever/where ever they may be) with only sometime use on an LHD then ashore to secure the airfield proper for the A model. Thankfully the RAAF can operate easily in STOVL mode ashore and afloat - no big deal with the B.

Posted by: Luig May 26 2014, 05:57 AM
This special edition of the NAVY pdf online is worth having a look at if at all interested in 'Oz F-35Bs on Oz LHDs'. Attached is one article excerpt as described with info below on the other articles....

QUOTE
THE NAVY - Special Edition Oct-Dec 2010 Vol 72 No4 www.navyleague.org.au
Amphibious Close Air Support

Close Air Support & Naval Aviation - The Natural Combination by Dr Norman Friedman

"...Both the historical record and the basic logic of the situation, then, suggest that it is the grossest folly to imagine that a limited number of long-range land-based fighter-bombers are an adequate substitute for a small number of fighter-bombers near the scene of an operation. Advocates of land-based air power reject any such suggestion, but they have neither historical experience nor analysis on their side. Matters are particularly bad for a country like Australia, whose force of fighter-bombers is very limited in numbers because each airplane is so expensive. In the past, Australian defence policy has emphasized the direct defence of the country. Given limited numbers, it is clearly impossible to station aircraft all around the periphery of the country, even all around the area which might be subject to attack. The solution was to build unoccupied airfields, moving the finite fighter force to whichever one was in range of the threat. That policy carries with it real problems, but it was certainly a way to compromise between aircraft numbers and geography....

...The STOVL version of the JSF offers many logistics and training synergies with the RAAF’s land based version and would enable future Australian CAS requirement from the LHDs to be met. Further, these synergies and added operational flexibility would save the ADF many millions of dollars in added operational costs to get the land based JSF to the battle. It should also be noted that the fused, integrated and linked sensor package in one JSF far outweighs the reconnaissance and surveillance capability of many of Army’s fleet of Tiger armed reconnaissance helicopters. Thus negating the need for them on the LHDs and freeing space for JSF employment.

OTHER ARTICLES IN SAME PDF ONLINE:

THE CANBERRA CLASS LHDs

CARRIER BORNE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT – HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVES
By CDR David Hobbs MBE, RN (Rtd)

CLOSE AIR SUPPORT AND NAVAL AVIATION – THE NATURAL COMBINATION
By Dr Norman Friedman

THE CHALLENGES OF AN ORGANIC FIXED WING CAPABILITY FOR AUSTRALIA’S LHDs
By Mark Boast [ex-A4G RAN FAA pilot and then SHAR pilot Sqdn CO & Test Pilot]

SOURCE: http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Navy-Vol_72_No_4-Oct-2010.pdf (3.2Mb)

Posted by: Warhawk May 26 2014, 11:04 AM
In all seriousness, after several laterals in humour, I suspect the only F-35Bs that will grace our LPDs on a regular/irregular basis will be Darwin Based USMC F-35Bs that will eventually be based "up there" when the future rotations expand in the coming years.

And that would be only to get "hands on" training for all.

Currently the first Marine Aviation deployments will happen this year with 4 CH-53E Super Stallions, to be based at RAAF Darwin. Add AH-1Z Super Cobras and UH-1Ys deployments soon, with F-35Bs in the 20's ...its gets pretty heavy.

Meanwhile,.....MRTTs, E-7s and AP-3Cs supporting F/A-18Fs and F-35As will do, and with a high level of confidence.

The Opforce rationale for operating any F-35Bs is just not there for us. "Who are they and what they have now or in tens years isn't going to cut it.

We have our Bases in NT and , I'm sure, we can operate on the opposite side of the Timor Gap in East Timor in a pinch, along with PNG Strips. At a pinch, Singapore if all of the RSAF don't come home, or strips in the Philippines .

Thus all Sea Lines of communications are covered.

Just one thing,...(yes humour input) for Gawd's sake, paint those Seaborne Army choppers with dull mid-grey paint!

Best

Gordy


Posted by: Luig May 26 2014, 01:49 PM
You may have a point. Nevertheless that two senior politician have expressed what they have said in public - stating that the F-35B must be considered in the next White Paper - does mean something. Humour it ain't. I have no inside track to any information so I'll await more information with interest.

As the PDF above indicates - air power from land bases over the sea does not cut the mustard. I'm not talking about invading a far superior opponent but protecting what we have with a small contingent of F-35Bs on LHDs when that mission of convoy protection is warranted. This used to be done on the ASW centric early MELBOURNE with 4 A4Gs.

IF the US / USMC have flat decks, despite having airfields all over the place with agreements to use them, then that says something. The wide blue PACIFIC with many small islands scattered around our region puts a real strain on any land based airpower/convoy protection solution. So scoff away but please do not change maps or scales of maps to improve range etc.

Read the entire 3+Mb PDF as indicated. You may learn something that is not land/RAAF centric.

Posted by: Warhawk May 26 2014, 08:13 PM
You may be right, I may have to eat my starched green yet rotting giggle hat!

"Prime Minister Tony Abbott has instructed the authors of the new Defence White Paper currently in preparation to consider the acquisition of the STOVL F-35B variant of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter to operate from the Navy’s forthcoming LHD amphibious ships.

“It is understood Mr ­Abbott has instructed planners working on his defence white paper to examine the possibility of putting a squadron of 12 of the short takeoff and vertical landing version of the JSFs — the F-35B — on to the ships,” a report in The Australian newspaper on Friday says.

A spokesperson for the Prime Minister contacted by the newspaper did not confirm or deny the suggestion the F-35B would be considered as part of the White Paper process, only noting that the White Paper’s Force Structure Review would: “examine a range of capabilities and will provide the government with options to ensure Australia maintains a sustainable, versatile and highly capable defence force in coming decades”.
AAV Mag



FIK,.. blink.gif

2 Alpha Out

Posted by: Luig May 27 2014, 12:29 PM
A lot of toing and froing IN PUBLIC will have to take place over some years for the idea of F-35Bs on LHDs to have any public traction/support. Videos of same with USMC F-35Bs reaching for the sky cross decking will help.

It is interesting to me that over a period of years one RAAF spokesperson I took an interest in (BINNY) was saying that the RAAF only required ALL F-35As and I thought 'fair enough'.

Then a politician (now referred to as smart but not at the time) bought 2 dozen Super Hornets for the RAAF. Then another smart politician bought a dozen Growlers for the 'ALL F-35A RAAF'.

Binny has usually countered any mention of 'F-35Bs on LHDs' with NO! end of.

Things change and change again. Whoda' thunk.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug May 27 2014, 01:36 PM
This may change the possibility of RAN F-35B operating off our new Canberra class LHDs:

http://australianaviation.com.au/2014/05/johnston-raises-possibility-of-acquiring-f-35bs/

Defence Minister Senator David Johnston has again raised the possibility of Australia acquiring a number of Lockheed Martin F-35B short take off and vertical landing (STOVL) versions of the Joint Strike Fighter for operation from the RAN’s new Canberra class LHD vessels.

Speaking to The Weekend West on May 17, Senator Johnston said the acquisition of the F-35B was “an option which has been considered from day one.” His comments echo those he made to an ASPI dinner in October 2012 where he described the LHDs as “…STOVL capable.”

Defence officials have consistently tried to pour cold water on the possibility of Australia buying F-35Bs over the years, despite its commonality with the conventional takeoff F-35A version of which the RAAF is acquiring 72 examples.

The Canberra class LHDs are being built optimised for amphibious operations using water craft and helicopters, and do not have sufficient fuel and weapons bunkerage to operate F-35Bs without a considerable upgrade in the RAN’s support ship fleet. Further, and while the possibility of cross-decking with F-35Bs of the USMC, the UK and other partner nations exists and will likely be encouraged, the LHDs do not have the thermion heat-resistant deck coating required to accommodate the F-35B’s exhaust for extended operations.

The F-35A and B models share about 60 per cent of their structure and a much higher percentage of their key systems and have similar handling characteristics in conventional flight regimes, meaning the logistics and initial training requirements would be broadly similar. But the F-35B is projected to cost about 20 per cent more than the F-35A, will be operationally limited to 7.5g and has about 30 per cent less range due to the need to accommodate the large lift fan, and will require a specialist flight training regime for deck operations and specialist maintenance training for under-way sustainment and support.

You remember that list I made in another thread in which I listed all the support staff needed to launch and recover aircraft from a aircraft carrier or LHD. The new Canberra class LHDs are basically copies of the Spanish ship Juan Carlos I which operate AV-8B Harrier II STOVL so either the deck of our new LHDs is different than the Juan Carlos I or the F-35B has a hotter exhaust for Vertical Landing or Take Off? Hopefully it's not too hard to somehow make a thermion heat-resistant deck coating...

The Juan Carlos I holds 800 tonnes of JP-5 fuel and 2,150 t of diesel fuel. More knowledgeable people on here would now how long both those types of fuel would last if we had F-35Bs whilst also using including all our helicopters of course.


http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infodefensa.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2FJCI_en_v2.pdf&ei=IgSEU4LOBobkkgXok4DABQ&usg=AFQjCNERG4L4QleE_8iRChZQUU-zBEpIjg&sig2=i6CLwqwdtQy1B1ROp9VOJg&bvm=bv.67720277,d.dGI

user posted image

user posted image

Posted by: Luig May 27 2014, 03:22 PM
For a start the F-35B is listed as being only 7G capable.

That is an excellent pdf (highlighted some time ago on several other forums by me but I do not own it). Probably it has been made clear that our LHDs were optimised internally for the operations described on the RAN LHD website. When I last looked there were two such missions which did not include the two others on the Spanish LHD website one of the missing being the 'aircraft carrier' mission.

As I understand the aircraft carrier mission for the Spanish Navy requires their LHD to undergo some quick alongside temporary mods but not being conversant with all the details of either LHD (which are probably not public) then other than bolting up the stern ramp I have no idea what the Spanish Aircraft Carrier mods are. Probably something to do with more aviation fuel but that is only a guess. Certainly there is a huge amount of space inside these LHDs that can be used for different missions.

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/lhd
QUOTE
"...The [LHD] ship's roles are to:

• embark, transport and deploy an embarked force (Army in the case of the ADF but could equally be an allied Army or Marines), along with their equipment and aviation units, and

• carry out/support humanitarian missions....


I'll repeat this till I die probably. Our LHDs - as they are configured now and likely until they rust away - will not be configured as 'aircraft carriers' but they may be able to temporarily embark four F-35Bs for transit to the op area where they will disembark - to take / hold a proper airfield (with the troops onboard) to be then resupplied by the MASSIVE RAAF cargo aircraft and be joined by the F-35As and their and the F-35B then refueller KCs. Fairly simple really with not a lot of drama for anyone except perhaps bumping off some 'not required' for that mission ARMY helos.

The thing about such a large flat deck ship is that the aircraft mix can vary a lot - even if only temporarily. And then back to the mission....

Posted by: Luig May 27 2014, 03:37 PM
Ride the Lightning: Testing the Marine Corps' latest fighter 27 Mar 2009 Dave Majumdar

http://www.examiner.com/article/ride-the-lightning-testing-the-marine-corps-latest-fighter
QUOTE
"...The F-35B also loses the ability to pull some Gs compared to the conventional USAF variant. The STOVL can only pull 7G compared to 9G for the F-35A and 7.5G for the F-35C. Tomlinson explained that this is not a result of any trade-off made for improved short field performance. “There’s no reason we can’t make a 9G STOVL airplane”, he said.

Tomlinson explained, “Because of the stealth and sensors, the Marine Corps and Navy weren’t interested in more than 7G and 7.5G for their F-35 versions. The Marines and Navy have never been enthusiastic about a 9G capability. It’s not required for their mission. To get more G, you need to beef up that structure and that adds weight. The USAF made the trade-off for the 9G capability.”

Other than the reduced G-limit, in conventional flight the F-35B handles almost exactly like the F-35A, Tomlinson explained. The F-35B retains the same outstanding low-speed, high angle of attack handling qualities as well as the same incredible acceleration as the F-35A. “You struggle to tell the difference between the CTOL and the STOVL in the cockpit,” Tomlinson said, adding that test pilots are trained to notice even minute differences in aircraft handling qualities. Tomlinson noted that while the F-35B’s lift-fan causes a visible bump in the aircraft’s outer mold line, the only cue in the cockpit is a slightly different wind noise. “STOVL only applies below 10 thousand feet and below 250 knots,” Tomlinson notes...."

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug May 28 2014, 02:15 PM
If the new Canberra class LHDs can't operate any type of VTOL aircraft because our decking" does not have the thermion heat-resistant deck coating required to accommodate the F-35B’s exhaust for extended operations." Same probably goes too with the AV-8B Harrier II. So who dropped the ball on this one, is it a high ranking RAN Officer or is the Defence or Defence Materials Minister? Basically who authorized a LHD that DOESN'T have a heat-resistant deck coating for possible VTOL?

@Luig I only got around to listen to half of how military hardware is procured and now it's unavailable. If you could fixed the link I would really appreciate it mate.

Australia's Defence and the Strike Fighter Purchase 09may2014.mp3
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18877 (.MP3 2.6Mb)


Also if we are doing cross decking with US Marine aircraft operating from the US Navy's Wasp-class amphibious assault ships when we are doing cross training exercises to get our new LHDs up to Full Operational Capability. The USMC F-35Bs won't be able to land on the HMAS Canberra let alone get refueled by us whilst on board because we do not have sufficient fuel and weapons bunkerage to operate F-35Bs without a considerable upgrade in the RAN’s support ship fleet

I am seriously surprised that in a new ship like the HMAS Canberra and Adelaide that if we were to operate F-35Bs we wouldn't have many and there HAS to be room in these massive ships to store the ordnance. I mean if this ship can carry a dozen 65 ton M1 Abrams tanks it must be able to store bombs, missiles and 25mm rounds for the F-35B.

Lockheed Martin states that the weapons load can be configured as all-air-to-ground or all-air-to-air, and has suggested that a Block 5 version will carry three weapons per bay instead of two, replacing the heavy bomb with two smaller weapons such as AIM-120 AMRAAM air-to-air missiles

QUOTE
That is an excellent pdf (highlighted some time ago on several other forums by me but I do not own it)


Are you talking about the PDF about the specifications about the Juan Carlos I LHD? Even though you've already read it...

Lastly again I gave the list at the top of the thread of what all the cololured shirts in the US Navy mean and why they are required. So if we do get F-35Bs in say 5-10 years down the track we are going to require a specialist flight training regime for deck operations and specialist maintenance training for under-way sustainment and support.

So are we going do all our homegrown training or try do Officer and SNCO exchanges with crew on the Juan Carlos I with the Spanish? However we have in the last several years seen the landing of Australian Blackhawks and other helos on board Wasp class LHDs off Darwin and USMC billeting at Robertson Barracks. So that's good warm up laugh.gif From what I've read the the US is looking to possibly base its United States Pacific Command Marine Air-Ground-Task Force in Darwin and could possibly base a LHD up there one day.

From Wiki:
An Australian Army S70A-9 Black Hawk and a CH-47D Chinook assigned to Australian 5th Aviation Regiment, conduct flight operations from the flight deck of the amphibious assault ship USS Boxer (LHD 4) in support of Talisman Sabre 2005.

user posted image

Posted by: Luig May 28 2014, 02:43 PM
Puhleez about the RAN training appropriate deck crew. This has been ongoing for many years now with a specific virtual reality trainer in a warehouse in the eastern suburbs as I mentioned. If you do not bother to download and peruse my PDFs I'm not going to regurgitate them piecemeal here. Ask a question from the material and I'll know you have gone to the trouble. Just guessing about what you do not know is pathetic.

The F-16.net website has been down most of the day our time. The website will be back whenever then you can hear more I guess. When that is I do not know.

Resurfacing the LHD deck with THERMION or equivalent will be easy when appropriate. Does not need to be done this very minute because both the ship and any F-35Bs on it are years in the future.

Do not stress about F-35Bs landing on our LHDs for a ski jump or two. The LHD deck is stressed for the F-35B already as are the lifts - these are the Spanish design specs. As I mentioned provisioning for a long stay of any number of F-35Bs is NOT how our LHDs are set up. They have been modified slightly for the two missions (out of the Spanish four) as seen on the RAN website. This is not a secret.

Can you imagine two ships able to operate F-35Bs in the needed vicinity? If only our LHD then that ship will be near an appropriate BINGO landing place ashore for any demo of probably USMC F-35B capability ops. This is not a lengthy process. Planning for this event will have been considered years ago. So far the F-35B has been twice aboard USS Wasp for testing in Oct 2011 for about 72 VLs and STOs; then again in Aug 2013 for some 90 odd similar but under more difficult conditions, such as wind and a fuel internal load. No problems were to be seen.

USS Wasp is the oldest in that class and the one that has not been upgraded much over the recent years, for whatever reason. However it was modified for the first F-35B trials and again for the second. Now it has gone into a long refit where many non-related to F-35B parts of ship; and of course those parts related to operating F-35Bs, are being modified. So what? Happens all the time with ships (in refit) and unsurprisingly with aircraft.

The F-35 family are slated for modification on a regular basis for both software and hardware alternately and then both at a regular interval (several years) over their lifetime. Any objections?

Posted by: Luig May 28 2014, 02:45 PM
As appropriate exchanges with relevant friendly foreign navies occur all the time in large or small groups over long or short times. Here is one example:'

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Aug2013/Fleet/320/Sea-riding-in-the-Spanish-LHD-–-a-glimpse-of-what’s-to-come-for-Canberra's-company.htm

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug May 29 2014, 03:11 PM
Sea-riding in the Spanish LHD – a glimpse of what’s to come for Canberra's company

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Aug2013/Fleet/320/Sea-riding-in-the-Spanish-LHD-%E2%80%93-a-glimpse-of-what%E2%80%99s-to-come-for-Canberra%27s-company.htm

Seeing as though I'm not up to up to date I knew there had to be many RAN personnel getting to know how the Spanish Navy's Juan Carlos I is operated and SOPs so the HMAS Canberra could get off the ground running so there is a smaller gap between launch date and commissioning date. I'm a bit surprised that the Spanish are continuing with their AV-8B Harriers II although maybe they might just wait out to see how the F-35B aircraft operates with other countries around the globe with LHDs?

QUOTE
Read the entire 3+Mb PDF as indicated. You may learn something that is not land/RAAF centric.


I try read your links but some of them just don't come up for example the:
CAS___NavAv_The_Navy_Vol_72_No_4_Oct_2010.pdf just came up with nearly 100 pages of all random characters you could find on a keyboard. If you are talking about the: http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/upload..._4-Oct-2010.pdf I'm about to read that now. Unfortunately the F-16.net site is still down. Also OneDrive you have to sign up then I have no idea how to use or which PDF to view.

QUOTE
If only our LHD then that ship will be near an appropriate BINGO landing place ashore for any demo of probably USMC F-35B capability ops. This is not a lengthy process. Planning for this event will have been considered years ago. So far the F-35B has been twice aboard USS Wasp for testing in Oct 2011 for about 72 VLs and STOs; then again in Aug 2013 for some 90 odd similar but under more difficult conditions, such as wind and a fuel internal load. No problems were to be seen.


I've seen on YouTube the successful Short Takeoffs and Vertical Landings of the F-35B off the USS Wasp and other testing ages ago. Seeing as though the Wasp class is a completely flat deck so will our 13 degree ski-jump make the MINIMUM take off length for our possible F-35Bs shorter? The minimum take off length for a maximum weight (fuel and weapons) is 167.64 metres while the flight deck length of the HMAS Canberra is 202.3m long. Doesn't seem like much room for error, unless it takes off without much fuel and hits the tanker soon after launch?

QUOTE
The F-35 family are slated for modification on a regular basis for both software and hardware alternately and then both at a regular interval (several years) over their lifetime.


Just like updating the software on your iPhone from time to time laugh.gif Lastly like I brought up do we have the ability to store enough jet fuel and diesel on aboard without a replenishment ship escorting it? Also once the new Hobart-class Air Warfare Destroyers are built I might guess they will escort the new LHDs like a mini US Carrier Battle Group? In the meantime I would ASSUME that they would have an Anzac-class or Adelaide-class frigates by their side for anti-air?

If I said or assumed anything erroneous it is not intentional.

Cheers! biggrin.gif


user posted image

Posted by: Luig May 30 2014, 12:59 AM
Despite what I read about Adobe Reader for Windows on the internet it is always best to use the latest version which is available for your platform here:

http://get.adobe.com/reader/otherversions/

Having once again downloaded the full version of the Navy League PDF and then the excerpt here OK (try right clicking on the URLs to download the PDFs rather than just left clicking on them) I suggest you try again. Yes F-16.net is down and I have no idea why.

IF you look at the instructions about the folders and PDFs for either OneDrive or GoogleDrive you should be able to fathom what is what. All the names of things have words joined, with separate words usually beginning with a capital letter. You will get used to it.

The first part of your question is correct whilst the second part is just a fabrication from ignorance.
QUOTE
"...will our 13 degree ski-jump make the MINIMUM take off length for our possible F-35Bs shorter? The minimum take off length for a maximum weight (fuel and weapons) is 167.64 metres while the flight deck length of the HMAS Canberra is 202.3m long. Doesn't seem like much room for error, unless it takes off without much fuel and hits the tanker soon after launch?..."

You seem to want to forget that the LHD was designed by Spain to be able to operate the F-35B. Why would they not have sufficient deck length with ski jump to NOT be able to STO JUMP with a full internal weapon/fuel load? This is a vital KPP [Key Performance Parameter - which are well documented in the F-35 PDFs for example] for both the USMC and UK F-35Bs. I operate in feet being an oldie so the Oz LHDs are quite capable of launching an F-35B as described.

No ship - any kind of ship including a replenishment ship - operates anywhere at sea for any length of time without having to be replenished. As simple as that and a completely every day manoeuvre for all concerned. The UK old CVSs used to operate their SHARs during RASs (Replenishment at Sea). Not even a CVN can carry all the requirements needed without RAS - other than the diesel for their nuke engines of course.

That the Oz LHDs will be escorted by our Air Warfare Destroyers I hope has been made clear and not just by me inadvertently. These LHDs will not go anywhere in other than peacetime unescorted. HMAS Melbourne the aircraft carrier had a destroyer escort all the time or the potential for one nearby. Why? Mostly so that MELBOURNE itself would provide fuel and sometimes other stores for the escort(s). Otherwise a replenishment ship was there also for the same task. Sometimes (there are photos) of various combinations of three ships alongside one another RASing at the same time.

Posted by: Warhawk May 30 2014, 12:29 PM
Sigh

So the first F-35 ski jump testing will be done by the RAF/RN circa 2015-16. The original concept of the SHAR Invincible Class 9 degree(Original), later the perfect 12 degree ramp along with her sisters and Hermes is well documented.

Spain is broke and is in the middle of their "Austere" Budget cuts and restructure, and is now only operating Radar AV-8B Plus type after withdrawing their surviving AV-8Bs.

Italy, a AV-8B Plus operator, who actually will assemble their own F-35A/Bs in country, has "cut" their program from 130 plus to down to near 96 in a mix, but may and most probably go down further to a 60 mix. One Airforce and one Armada Sqn worth each, plus Air Force F-35A Sqns.

No Mention that Thailand? will they replace their grounded ex Spanish AV-8As per their 12 Degree Ramped 90's Spanish built Aircraft Carrier either (Yeap they have the newer sister ship of the now retired Spanish Carrier)

UK is set to order 14 F-35Bs as we tap, on top of the 4 already, to equip 617 Sqn with an IOC in 2018,.........with RNFAA numbered Sqn forming second per the next incremental order. Looks like 48 will be the eventual number. Then there's the Scottish Independence Referendum in September 2014, will they demand a carrier?(Sorry tongue in cheek on that one!)

So its all look "if ,when or maybe" at present

Per software, I find that if you just follow the idiot queues, you can't go wrong! I'm a case in point.

So on that note, I shall retire from this string

"Go Navy"

Gordy


Posted by: Luig May 30 2014, 12:46 PM
Not sure what you are getting at in your post above Gordy but never mind - my problem - I'll reread it a few times. Yes Spain will upgrade their AV-8Bs to soldier on without buy any F-35Bs - for the time being. Budgets improve we hope but who knows. Thailand is out of the picture I have no idea why you bring it up but anyway...

The USMC plan to retire their AV-8Bs by 2030 and have several upgrades in the works. It takes time to buy the required F-35B/C aircraft in bunches, year by year, to replace the USN/USMC fleets - as required. I can provide more detail on that. Meanwhile - back at the ranch....

The Cost of Defence ASPI Defence Budget Brief 2014–2015
QUOTE
“...No doubt the situation will become obvious in the development of the 2015 Defence White Paper. When it does, we should expect to see two things. First, the size of the force will grow. An extra battalion or two to crew the new LHD amphibious vessels would help bring things into balance, as would a squadron of jump jet variants of the F-35 to reinstate the fleet air arm aboard the LHD. Such possibilities aren’t to be discounted. Back in 2008 Andrew Davies and I modelled the sorts of defence forces we could have if we spent around 2% of GDP in the 2020s (see the ASPI paper Strategic Choices: Defending Australia in the 21st Century) and we were surprised by just how much capability could be afforded....” (page 141)


Source: https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/the-cost-of-defence-aspi-defence-budget-brief-2014-2015/CostofDefence2014.pdf (6.4Mb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug May 30 2014, 01:17 PM
Cheers Luig as always, I'll try get the latest Adobe PDF reader if I don't unknowingly have it already and I'll keep trying F-16.net as that at a quick glance is a wealth of information!

QUOTE
You seem to want to forget that the LHD was designed by Spain to be able to operate the F-35B. Why would they not have sufficient deck length with ski jump to NOT be able to STO JUMP with a full internal weapon/fuel load?


Oh so what's the difference between the Juan Carlos I and the new Canberra class? I mean the Spanish have no plans to buy the F-35B (see link below)? Or did the Spanish Defence Force when they designed their Juan Carlos I way back in the early 2000s leave the door open for F-35B (which would have just been drawings back then).

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/154245/spain-drops-plan-to-buy-f_35b,-will-upgrade-av_8bs-instead.html

Spain will extend the service life of its AV-8B Plus Harrier shipboard fighters until at least 2015 as it cannot afford to buy F-35B STOVL fighters to replace them, as it originally planned. (Armada photo at bottom)
One of the biggest concerns of the Spanish navy about its future -- the 'expiration' of the Harrier fighters and their complicated succession – has now been solved by a 70-million euro plan to extend their service life beyond 2025. Their intended replacement, the American F-35B, must wait "until it becomes financially accessible" for Spain.
Spain has secured the future of its naval air wing, after years of uncertainty about what vertical takeoff fighters it would operate after 2020.
After the loss of the aircraft carrier 'Principe de Asturias’ -- an ideal platform for STOVL fighters, but which has now been retired -- the Navy had begun a process of reducing its Harrier force. Four of them were 'retired' after having been modernized at a total cost of about 11 million euros (about 3 million euros each) as no economic resources were available to operate and support them.
With an outlay of 70 million euros-spread over ten years, Spain has gained access to the equipment and spare parts necessary to ensure that its fleet of AV-8B Harrier Plus fighters continue flying beyond 2025.

One of the options being considered for the future is that, once the US takes these STOVL aircraft into service, it could hand over a few of them to Spain until the Spanish economy improves enough to allows the purchase of an F-35B package of its own.


I wish the US would lend us a few F-35Bs until we have some spare change or a budget surplus! cool.gif

The minimum takeoff length of a F-35B is just 400 feet however I can't find the minimum takeoff length of a AV-8B Harrier II. One thing I am second guessing is why didn't the architects of our LHDs didn't install thermion heat-resistant deck coating required to accommodate the F-35B’s exhaust? Even if we don't have our own F-35Bs we do want the ability for cross decking with Allied ships (USMC mainly) that do operate F-35Bs? I mean the Spanish Navy operate their STOVL Harriers so they must have thermion heat-resistant decking so maybe the RAN is waiting until we actually have F-35Bs in the pipeline so why spend the money now I ASSUME.

QUOTE
That the Oz LHDs will be escorted by our Air Warfare Destroyers I hope has been made clear and not just by me inadvertently. These LHDs will not go anywhere in other than peacetime unescorted.


Can I get your opinion on whether our new LHDs need more weapons systems (we only have 4 x 25mm and several .50 cals) especially when you compare it to the US Wasp class ships with an arsenal of anti-air, anti-ship missiles, guns and cannons?

Lastly can you see the RAN FAA or the RAAF ever buying a V-22 Osprey VTOL tiltrotor aircraft in the future to operate from the LHDs? If this has already been discussed on another military forum or a RAN/RAAF newspaper then I apologise for not being up to date with possible future aircraft of any kind. They do fold up nicely as to not take up so much real estate either up top or in the hanger.

Thanks as always!!

user posted image


2 x Spanish AV-8B Plus Harriers
user posted image

Posted by: Luig May 30 2014, 02:25 PM
F-16.net for the audio is back online:
QUOTE
"29 May 2014 20:20
As you probably noticed, the site has been off-line since Tuesday 1800GMT, due to a catastrophic hardware failure. We now have a new server up and running. Some minor issues remain (e.g. non-standard characters do not display properly yet) but we're working to fix those. Apologies for the inconvenience - Stefaan"

Posted by: Luig May 30 2014, 02:40 PM
Again try reading up on your questions - just ask a question without proffering some bollocks as your answer already. Just proffer the bollocks without the question if you follow my drift? Anyway it is well known and on several official Spanish websites (which have to be in English) and several old news reports (often in the PDFs online) that the Juan Carlos I was designed with the F-35B in mind. Go there if you do not download the PDFs and read this info for yourself. I could post a URL but you give me so much to do I just can't be bothered at moment.

The Spanish Government have also paid LM to provide information about operating F-35Bs from their LHD. This makes sense - no? The Spanish like a lot of EURO countries have budget troubles. What they have done is delayed considering buying F-35Bs by upgrading their Harriers and prolonging their support contract. The USMC do this also (in their way) by making sure their Harriers or what is left of them will be going until 2030. This end date has been put back by more than a decade over the last decade as the USMC realised the delays in the F-35 program. The Brits gave the USMC a gift by selling their Harrier hardware to them on the cheap.

I fail to see how the USMC lending anyone their F-35Bs will be helpful. Perhaps they will operate with the Spanish as they will anyway. No one is stupid here. In the same way the USMC will flop off our ski jump when they can.

Once again download the LHD and the F-35 and the 'how to deck land' PDFs when you can. There is a tonne of info about THERMION in these PDFs. THERMION is only recent. Only recently it was revealed that the CVFs will have a similar - if not the same - deck coating (the UK seem to NOT want to say what it is yet). Why does everything have to happen tomorrow? Our guvmnt has not even decided to have our F-35BS on our LHDs and you want the deck covered in THERMION? Sheesh. The first LHD has not been accepted by the RAN yet. Even.

The Spanish LHD will have appropriate deck coating for their Harrier fleet which have qualified for operations onboard. End of.

You seem to be a bit slow on the uptake. What self defence weapon is better than an F-35B on fleet defence duties?

I can see the ADF putting one foot in front of another on any question of new equipment especially for example the V-22. Wait until the USMC PROVE their new missions with the mission equipment for air refuelling (already under development) and other missions slated for their V-22s. Australia has apparently expressed some interest but nothing much more than that. I'm sure the Brits would find them useful but once again they have to have the funds and a reason that they discover for themselves. All this takes time. They have yet to even launch their first CVF etc.

Cartoon from: https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/the-cost-of-defence-aspi-defence-budget-brief-2014-2015/CostofDefence2014.pdf (6.4Mb)

Posted by: Luig Jun 1 2014, 09:48 AM
F-35B JSF for the ADF—a viable option in the 2015 White Paper? (Part 2) 30 May 2014 Malcolm Davis
http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/f-35b-jsf-for-the-adf-a-viable-option-in-the-2015-white-paper-part-2/
QUOTE
"...it’s becoming clear that China’s rapid military modernisation, its assertive behavior in the East and South China Sea, and the growing regional security dilemmas emerging in the form of regional military modernisation, will increase the risk of conflict in the future. In that future, the risk must be that Australia will be drawn into a regional conflict involving the United States and China.

In that scenario it’s likely that US military forces would have access to Australian military facilities in the north and west. It also seems plausible that the ADF, working alongside US air and naval forces, would be required to respond to Chinese attempts to deny US forces a sanctuary in Australia from which to conduct operations against China. That could involve Chinese forces seeking to contest Australian air and sea approaches, and launch attacks on US forces operating from Australian facilities. Based on language in the 2013 White Paper, the ADF’s response to such a challenge would be to ‘...deter attacks or coercion against Australia by demonstrating our capability to impose prohibitive costs on potential aggressors and deny them the ability to control our maritime approaches'. Furthermore, the ADF might also ‘...undertake operations against adversary’s bases and forces in transit, as far from Australia as possible. ...using strike capabilities and the sustained projection of power by joint task forces, including amphibious operations in some circumstances'....

...It’s in countering the advantages bestowed by strategic geography on an adversary practising anti-access operations where a small force of F-35Bs deployed on LHDs might play a significant role. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter’s key advantages are purported to be stealth, integrated avionics and an ability to network with off-board sensors—all of which contribute to the pilot in the F-35 having an information advantage over an opponent, whether that opponent is in the air, on land or on the sea. If the F-35B is seen as a key node in an intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) network that contributes towards an expeditionary force gaining a knowledge advantage at the tactical level, then a force of F-35Bs on board LHDs will add to the joint task force survivability. Information gathered by the sensor systems can be exploited by the F-35B to attack detected targets, or the F-35B can act as a sensor in a ‘sensor to shooter’ link, with the ‘shooter’ being a naval vessel or a submarine. Furthermore, the F-35B can exploit austere bases on land—known as forward arming and refuelling points (FARPs)—to operate in support of naval task forces in archipelagic waters, thus easing operational challenges and risks for the LHDs....

...Only a small number could be carried onboard the LHDs, and at the expense of other important capabilities. But an F-35B acquisition could offer the ADF a more flexible way to undertake the Principal Tasks, even in the face of growing threats from an adversary’s anti-access ability."


MAP: https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/taking-wing-time-to-decide-on-the-f-35-joint-strike-fighter/SI70_F35_decision.pdf (2Mb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 1 2014, 03:29 PM
I am loving this F-16.net mate! I had never even heard of an Advanced Super Hornet until today. There's a lot for me to to catch up on.

http://www.boeing.com/boeing/defense-space/military/fa18ef/

So does the RAAF have any plans to upgrade our current Super Hornets into "Advanced"?

QUOTE
Once again download the LHD and the F-35 and the 'how to deck land' PDFs when you can. There is a tonne of info about THERMION in these PDFs. THERMION is only recent. Only recently it was revealed that the CVFs will have a similar - if not the same - deck coating (the UK seem to NOT want to say what it is yet). Why does everything have to happen tomorrow? Our guvmnt has not even decided to have our F-35BS on our LHDs and you want the deck covered in THERMION? Sheesh. The first LHD has not been accepted by the RAN yet. Even.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149237/New-500m-jets-set-cost-taxpayers-MELT-ships-decks.html


The controversial replacements for the Harrier jump jets may cost taxpayers even more than their £500million asking price - because the heat from take off could melt aircraft carriers' decks. The fumes from the U.S. Joint Strike Fighters are so hot that special heat-resistant paint will be required to protect the take-off strip. But American military experts are still developing the coating, which the Britain will now have to beg for as well as the new planes.

The flaw is the latest problem to hit the ministry of defence's 6.2billion plan for two new aircraft carriers after scrapping the Ark Royal and selling off the Harriers. It comes just two weeks after Defence Secretary Philip Hammond was forced into an embarrassing U-turn over the purchase of the new jets. He scrapped plans to replace the Harriers with conventional F-35C planes, which take off from an runway, when the £2billion cost of fitting the new warships with catapult take-off systems was discovered. The Government then had to revert to the previous Labour government's plan to purchase 12 F-35B 'jump jets', at a cost of up to £500million each. The turnaround cost taxpayers an estimated £250million. The new heat-resistant 'Thermion' coating has been developed in America after U.S. tests showed that exhausts from the jets could melt ships' decks.

An MoD spokesman said the cost of the new paint would be 'negligible' and were 'greatly offset' by the savings from not fitting the £2billion 'cats and traps' to the aircraft carriers. Work to identify a suitable deck coat is ongoing so exact costs are not yet available,' the spokesman said. The new aircraft carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales, are set to be completed in 2020. The project has been branded an 'omnishambles' by Labour defence spokesman Jim Murphy. A spokesman for the MOD said: 'The MoD will save £2BN by not fitting "cats and traps" and this will greatly offset the relatively small cost of specialist deck coating which has always been factored into our plans. 'Deck coating was always part of the STOVL variant ship specification. Work to identify a suitable deck coating paint is ongoing with our American partners in this project.'


So although the size of the Queen Elizabeth class would enable it to accommodate most current and projected carrier-based fixed-wing aircraft the lack of arresting gear and angled flight deck means that, as initially completed, it is only capable of operating STOVL aircraft.

Therefore I ASSUME that the UK's MoD has crunched the numbers and worked out it's cheaper and easier to operate STOVL aircraft F-35Bs, Harriers and possibly V-22s rather than a conventional A/C carrier aircraft with the catapult and arresting gear for say the F-35Cs or Super Hornets in the future. These V-22s have landed on the HMS Illustrious in the past and ironically they also have the same problem with their exhausts causing deck heating problems.

QUOTE
THERMION is only recent. Only recently it was revealed that the CVFs will have a similar - if not the same - deck coating


DISCLAIMER (if this has already been discussed on said website I'm sorry) So if the UK have been operating their Jump Jet Harriers from their Invincible class aircraft carriers for decades then what deck coating did these ships have that allowed the Harriers the Vertically take off (if they needed to) and land vertically without melting their carrier's deck?

Or is the heat from the F-35B exhaust way more hotter than the Harriers? I'm getting mixed messages from my research of the exhaust temperature of a F-35B vs an AV-8B Harrier.

Below taken from:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/05/26/why-can-t-america-s-newest-stealth-jet-land-like-it-s-supposed-to.html

The F-35B—the version of the Joint Strike Fighter that the Marines and the British are buying—is designed to take off in a few hundred feet and land vertically, like a helicopter. Its advocates say that will allow the Marines to use short runways worldwide as improvised fighter bases, providing air cover for expeditionary forces. But to do VL, the engine thrust must be pointed straight downward, and the jet is twice the size of a Harrier. Result: a supersonic, pulsating jackhammer of 1,700-degree F exhaust gas.

In December 2009, the Naval Facilities Engineering Command (Navfac) issued specifications for contractors bidding on JSF construction work. The main engine exhaust, the engineers said, was hot and energetic enough to have a 50% chance of spalling concrete on the first VL. (“Spalling” occurs when water in the concrete boils faster than it can escape, and steam blows flakes away from the surface.)

Lockheed Martin, the lead contractor on the F-35B, was dismissive. The specifications were out of date and based on worst-case assessments, the company said, and tests in January 2010 showed that “the difference between F-35B exhaust temperature and that of the AV-8B [Harrier] is very small, and is not anticipated to require any significant… changes” to how the new plane was operated.



Hmmmm who to believe? cool.gif

Posted by: Luig Jun 1 2014, 04:08 PM
I'll just post this effort to help NON STOVL operators (including me) understand how the F-35B flies. The F-35 PDFs online or the "HOW TO DECK LAND" PDFs especially have plenty of info on this aspect and how it was achieved (VACC Harrier).

‘GREEN KNIGHTS’ The F-35B in service with VMFA-121 May 2014 Gary Wetzel www.combataircraft.net
Combat Aircraft Monthly May 2014 Vol 15, No 5
QUOTE
"Since the first F-35B arrived at MCAS Yuma, Arizona on November 16, 2012, VMFA-121 has made tremendous gains as it proceeds toward an initial operating capability (IOC) target of July 2015. Every step forward, no matter how minute, is part of a carefully-crafted plan designed to move the Marine Corps firmly into the leading edge of F-35 operations....

...One of the biggest reasons for the delay in proceeding at full rate with STOVL qualifications was completion of the new auxiliary landing field (ALF). This is replacing Aux 2, which had been the Harrier fleet’s lone facility for conducting vertical landing and take-offs and short-take offs for decades. The new ALF will more realistically replicate landings on the LHA/LHD assault ships that will deploy with F-35s as the central part of their strike force. It will have two different ‘decks’ to choose from, one each basically pointing north and south to take advantage of the prevailing winds around MCAS Yuma. Better training for F-35 operations, as well as the Harrier and rotary-wing platforms, will thus be provided.

STOVL operations
Lt Col Gillette also spoke about the ease of STOVL flight in the F-35 and what that means to his squadron and future USMC F-35 units. ‘I was an F/A-18 guy, so landing a jet vertically was something completely new to me. What I will tell you, from the experience of going through STOVL training and then going out and executing the shortened take-off, or slow landing, and then the vertical landing, is that this is something the engineers at Lockheed Martin got 100 per cent correct. It is amazingly easy to be extremely precise in the Mode 4, which is what we call VL. The beauty of the flight control logic is that it never changes regardless of the flight control mode you are in. So, imagine I am flying conventionally: if I want to go up, I pull back on the stick, and if I want to go down I push forward. Same for left or right. If I want to go forward I push ahead on the throttle and if I want to slow down I pull the throttle aft. That is also the basic control law the F-35 flies in what we call ‘up and away’, which is just normal conventional flight. When you transition to Mode 4, or STOVL, the flight control logic does not change as I decelerate and come to a hover.

‘Additionally, just through the advances in technology, when I tell the jet to hover over this point on earth it can do it hands-free. The F-35 will wind-correct, lean its wing into the wind and sit right over that point. When you think about that from a training continuum, and compare that to the Harrier fleet and their STOVL efforts, they [have to] spend so much time getting a pilot proficient at landing and maintaining that proficiency. Whether through simulators, practice flights here at Yuma or going out to the ship for periods at sea, the time spent in STOVL is extensive. I think with the F-35, in terms of time, money, flights, simulators, and so on, there will be a reduced amount of resources required to retain the same level of proficiency the Harrier units do now. Now, like anything it is cosmic until you go out and do it. But once you do and see it, you are like, ‘This wasn’t hard!’ And that was my big take-away from my first STOVL landing, which was on November 13, 2013. I don’t want to say it was mindlessly easy, but pretty close to that.’...

...Marines on the move
Marine air power is expeditionary in its very nature, able to pack up and move with little support, and the USMC F-35 squadrons will be no different. So far the F-35 community, and especially VMFA-121, has enjoyed the comfort of operating from state-of-the-art hangars and new buildings. However, an important lesson the squadron must learn is how to re-locate to somewhere where the established architecture is absent. During 2014, VMFA-121 will move twice. First, during late spring or early summer, it will simply move hangars, taking the first step necessary before going off-site to another location in the fall.

Prior to the delivery of the 2B software, the 16 F-35Bs the ‘Green Knights’ own will be shuffled off for airframe modifications. Throughout 2014, the squadron will have to manage the flow of airframes combined with the goal of meeting operational objectives...."

Posted by: Luig Jun 1 2014, 05:06 PM
Until you provide evidence that you have at least downloaded the F-35 specific PDFs from my webpage as mentioned I'm not going to put a lot of effort into answering your questions (that seem to stem from ignorance and reading the 'Daily Fail'). How credible is any news report that says the F-35B will melt the decks of ships. The reporter is either blind, has no access to the internet and must have come to earth in the last shitshower. For Fsake.

IF you look at the PDFs as mentioned you will see a HEAP of info about THERMION. endof.

Yes you have a lot of catching up to do to inform yourself generally and specifically about the F-35s and CVFs and all the other things. Get to it.

Then there is Bill Sweetman the self nominated arch enemy of the F-35s specifically the F-35B and the USMC in particular. No one in the US answers his e-mailed questions these days. Go figure why. See the first sentence of this paragraph.

There must be credible information out there? No? IF NOT why has the F-35B conducted two successful at sea deck landing and take off trials by day and night with heavy and light loads under all kinds of wind conditions. HOW is that correct? Someone has their head up their arse and it ain't me and it should not be you if you what? Download and read the PDFs online.

Specifically what Sweetman has a bee in his bonnet about the concrete is that for long term vertical landing use (with an occasional but not operationally required vertical takeoff) the permanent concrete pads at the various F-35B or potential F-35B training / landing places must have very specific strong concrete made pads. Again all this info is in the PDF.

Ashore there are many places suitable for seldom VL use and if any length of suitable material available (such as a runway - even an old macadam runway) then the F-35B can accomplish a dazzling array of variations of VLs from Creeping, to Slow and aboard a flat deck ship SRVL Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing. The SRVL requires more airspeed for some wing lift at around 60-70 KIAS depending on landing weight. With the ship making WOD Wind Over the Deck at perhaps 20 knots plus natural wind speed of 10 knots for example then the WOD is 30 knots. That means the ground speed of the touch down F-35B during and SRVL on CVF (no other place) will be 30-40 knots. The F-35B has computer controlled brakes. It will be able to stop in the required distance after clearing the stern of the ship with a higher than a conventional carrier landing aircraft glideslope. IF there is a problem it is thought that the F-35B can then accelerate down the deck and get airborne again off the ski jump (this would be called a bolter in conventional carrier ops). Where is a huge amount of info on how to deck land and how to specifically do this F-35 stuff?

Any other VL places one would consider NOT PERMANENT including the decks of suitable ships. So for example to ameliorate the effect of the heat on the current USN LHAs it is said that the VL spots will be varied slightly for each sortie so that any wear/tear is spread over the entire deck more or less and NOT just in the same spot over and over. This repeated heat stress on one spot will cause a problem over time.

Thermion is a new hard wearing non slip deck coating that should last for a decade, rather than the half year life of the current 'Harrier capable' deck coating. Think about the money saved by not having to repaint the deck twice a year.

As for sources for good info this will probably seem strange to you but a regular Military/Aviation website with some history of publishing would be a start. New websites publishing crap, including the DAILY FAIL, don't cut it of course ;but - whatever.

Ask a question from the PDFs and I can be more wordy perhaps. However saying the same things over and over is beyond tedious.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 2 2014, 10:08 AM
Before I get to the rest of your post I'll answer your question for you:

QUOTE
There must be credible information out there? No? IF NOT why has the F-35B conducted two successful at sea deck landing and take off trials by day and night with heavy and light loads under all kinds of wind conditions. HOW is that correct? Someone has their head up their arse and it ain't me and it should not be you if you what? Download and read the PDFs online.


http://defensetech.org/2011/10/25/the-wasps-new-heat-resistant-flight-deck-coating/

Remember a few weeks ago when we ran the picture above showing an F-35B Joint Strike Fighter hovering over what appears to be a new deck coating aboard the USS Wasp?

We wondered is the coating was designed to absorb the F-35B’s hot exhaust that many had worried would melt the ship’s deck. Well, the Navy has just put out a little more detail on the coating in a press release announcing the end of F-35B sea trials.

It turns out, this is indeed a new, heat-resistant deck coating called Thermion. It’s made of bonded ceramic and aluminum and was applied to landing spot nine on the Wasp’s flight deck — “a small area used for vertical landings,” according to the Navy.

The press release quotes a Navy technician who worked on the deck coating as saying, “the Thermion shows no signs of heat stress, which is good for the F-35, and eventually good for all surface ships.”

Interesting. I wonder if Thermion will be applied to the entire flight deck on amphibious assault ships slated to carry F-35Bs or is it too heavy and expensive to apply to the entire flight deck?

The Bravo isn’t slated to return for more sea trials aboard the Wasp until 2013, “after Wasp receives additional modifications for F-35B operations,” states the release.

Speaking of modifications, we also noticed that a large radome has been removed from the ship’s port side, just off the flight deck area where the F-35s were landing. Relocating this radome could be one of the modifications the release is talking about.

Read more: http://defensetech.org/2011/10/25/the-wasps-new-heat-resistant-flight-deck-coating/#ixzz33R4JxSzP
Defense.org

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 2 2014, 10:13 AM
This is the opinion of a friend of mine who is coming up to 20 years in the US Navy and is currently with SWCC but has served on Carriers and a Destroyer, below is his comment:

I have a friend at NAVAIR, now an LDO Officer. AFAIK Thermion was needed on Wasp due to the extremities of the testing. Operational Conditions won't near the levels they do in the trials. The Navy isn't going with Thermion on every LHD/LHA, its simply too expensive. So I doubt any other country will. Ive seen Thermion in action in the past. It used to be part of the Passive Countermeasures System (PCMS) used on Aegis Ships and Amphibs to make them a little more stealthy. The RCS benefits on the Burke Class was actually substantial. But in the long run it just wasn't worth it for the benefits. Ive actually seen it applied. First you have to flame-spray aluminum, which is expensive in itself. Then you roll on a special sealant. Then you basically have to melt on these special epoxy plates, which in turn gets covered with a thin ceramic. The wire-spray aluminum on top of that. Then a special paint which costs about 5k for a 5 gallon bucket. On top of that another sealer. On top of that goes a special flight deck non-skid with some kind of special silica in place of the sand.

Overall the situation is overblown. It simply means there is a bit more frequent re-application of the flight deck material. This is not just an F-35 issue. Many jump on it, just to get on the F-35 bandwagon. Its actually always been a problem on many ships with many aircraft. The V-22 is actually the worst of all on the decks. Tomcats, when they started carrying bombs, were notorious for deck wear. The heavy F-18Fs do damage too.

Posted by: Luig Jun 2 2014, 11:26 AM
Well one can fixate on THERMION till the cows come home. Something is expensive if it is not needed. If it only needs to be applied where it is needed every decade then sure sounds like good value to me. Stories from your mates are just that. I have photos of CVN decks that make it look very ragtag indeed but that is only the spot where most aircraft have landed catching the target No.3 wire after a long cruise. So - whatever.

THERMION will actually be a better heat conductor to heat the steel deck plates underneath. That is a minor issue. What THERMION does is provide the non-skid surface (especially when wet / icy conditions) so that aircraft and machines and people can move around more safely. THERMION is hard wearing so that - wait for it - it does not need to be applied every 6 months. Go read the PDFs online (download them first).

THERMION or equivalent will be especially important for CVF for SRVL (if SRVL is deemed safe for operational use. SRVL may not be required. Still early days after a decade of development interrupted by the Brits nonsensical switcheroo from F-35B to F-35C and back to F-35B again. Oh those Brits are a barrel of laughs. rolleyes.gif
__________________________

Pushing forward on the stick to go down vertically from a hover still makes my skin crawl. :-)

AUTO STO 450 feet & VL in Simulator - 60 Mins TV

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-60-minutes-david-martin/

Posted by: Luig Jun 3 2014, 08:19 AM
Because the success of the F-35B - firstly with USMC - is important to the notion of having F-35Bs on our LHDs then here is some news.... MORE detail at the jump if interested. I just ONLY bring you the good bits. biggrin.gif

Marine Joint Strike Fighter on Track to Meet 2015 Goal 02 June 2014 Dave Majumdar

http://news.usni.org/2014/06/02/marine-joint-strike-fighter-track-meet-2015-goal

QUOTE
"The U.S. Marine Corps’ F-35B short take-off vertical landing (STOVL) version of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) is making good progress toward meeting its July 2015 initial operational capability (IOC) date according to company officials....

...“They anticipate that testing will be complete late this year in November or December.”

The Marine Corps intends to declare the F-35B operational with interim Block 2B capabilities in July 2015. The Block 2B configuration includes basic data-fusion capabilities including data-links and a limited suite of weapons including the Raytheon AIM-120 advanced medium range air-to-air missiles (AMRAAM), 500lbs GBU-12 laser-guided bombs, and 1000lbs GBU-32 Joint Direct Attack Munitions....

...In addition to weapons capability, the Block 2B configuration will also afford operational pilots the ability to use more of the F-35B’s flight envelope....

...However, with the delivery of Block 2B, the aircraft will be cleared to operate at 550 knot KCAS, Mach 1.2, 50 degrees angle of attack and 5.5G, Van Camp said.... Further, with Block 2B, the aircraft’s maximum ceiling will be limited to 40,000ft rather than the full 50,000ft ceiling required for the full Block 3F operational capability....

...Both JSF program manager Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan and Marine Corps’ deputy commandant for aviation Lt. Gen. Robert Schmidle testified before Congress in March that modifying the existing F-35B fleet to operational standards in time for IOC would be the greater challenge.

Those hardware upgrades are collectively called “Group 1 modifications”, Van Camp said. There are about 57 individual modifications included in that package.
“Those inductions and work continues to improve on a daily basis,” he said.
However Group 1 modifications do not include a more comprehensive structural upgrade needed to rectify an airframe durability problem that has cropped up in recent months.

Those modifications will be added later in the depot or on the production line—either that, or an aircraft might receive an entirely redesigned bulkhead when it is being built. “All of those [fielded] airplanes at some point in time will have to be modified before they get to a certain number of flight hours,” Van Camp said. “Right now, some of those modifications are not required for several years.”...

...[USMC IOC] means a minimum of 10 deployable aircraft along with trained pilots and maintenance crews, there are still unanswered questions about operationally testing the JSF prior to that IOC date. “The government is going through discussions right now about what kind of operational tests will occur with the release of Block 2B,” Van Camp said.

The Marine Corps, which is the final authority on declaring the F-35B operational or not, referred questions about operational testing to the F-35 Joint Program Office (JPO). JPO officials did not respond to attempts to contact them.

Posted by: Luig Jun 3 2014, 10:06 AM
I have been told ad nauseam that our Oz LHDs have been internally modified to disallow some of the things the Spanith Navy can do with their LHD as described below (with an interesting insight into the 'sky jump' [referred to as this in illustrations therein] additional usefulness).
QUOTE
Navantia | Strategic Projection Ship | LHD “Juan Carlos I” Spanish Navy
"...The “JUAN CARLOS I” is a single hull ship made of steel with the superstructure on the starboard side. Her design is based on a combination of military and commercial standards and specifications; the structure, equipment and materials follow Lloyd’s Register of Shipping’s civil standards, whilst her combat system, ordnance handling and stowage systems, systems of supply at sea, flight deck and the damage control system follow military standards.

The ship as being designed with four mission profiles:

AMPHIBIOUS SHIP: Capable of transporting a Marine Infantry Force to carry out landing , supporting operations on land.

FORCE PROJECTION SHIP: Transporting forces of any army to a theatre of operations.

AIRCRAFT CARRIER: A temporary platform for carrier-based naval aircraft, acting as a flight deck for strategic projection airborne vectors (Navy’s Air Wing), capable of becoming a temporary platform to substitute the aircraft-carrier, “PRINCIPE DE ASTURIAS”, when she is not available due to downtime (repairs, modifications, etc.).

HUMANITARIAN AID OPERATIONS SHIP: NON-WAR operations, humanitarian assistance, evacuation of crisis areas, hospital ship in areas affected by natural disaster, etc.

...For its part, the runway has a 12° gradient or ski-jump afore to facilitate the takeoff of STOVL and to improve the loading capacity of fuel and weaponry....

...The flight deck has been designed to operate, launch, receive and provide support, both day and night, to planes and helicopters such as the third Squadron’s AB-212, the fifth Squadron’s SH-3D, and the ninth Squadron’s AV-8B Harrier II Plus. As well as the aircraft in service with the Navy, the ship is able to receive the Army’s CH-47 Chinook, Eurocopter Cougar and Tiger as well as the NH-90 when it enters into service with the Navy and with the Spanish Army.

In a significant qualitative leap, this ship is also designed to operate with the STOVL version of the JSF, the F-35B Lightning II, if the Spanish Navy decides to acquire this exceptional plane. A touchdown point has also been reserved astern of the flight deck that is specially adapted (in dimensions and resistance) for the special needs of the new V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft.

For the transfer of aircraft between the hanger and the flight deck, the Juan Carlos I has two elevators, each with a capacity of 25 tonnes and sufficient size to be able to carry up to the new F-35B Lightning II, or a helicopter the size of a Chinook. The capacity of the hangar is variable depending on the mission profile. This means an area of 1,000 m2 would be available for an amphibious type profile. This surface area could be increased by a further 2,046 m2, using the upper garage to have greater capacity for the aircraft. This means the hangar would reach 3,000 m2 for an aircraft carrier type profile. The hanger itself, situated further astern, can house up to 12 medium-sized helicopters. In the case of the LHD operating as a temporary aircraft carrier, the vehicles and material would be substituted by between 10 and 12 STOVL planes, as well as the dozen helicopters previously mentioned. In order to provide support for airborne operations, it is estimated that the ship has sufficient fuel, spare parts and arms so that the embarked aircraft could carry out their operations without the ship needing replenishment for up to a maximum of 50 days.

The planned airborne capacity is for her to transport and operate up to 30 aircraft including medium-sized and heavy helicopters in amphibious operation profiles, or between 10 and 12 F-35B planes or AV-8B+, plus a similar number of medium-sized helicopters when acting with an aircraft carrier mission profile at times when the Príncipe de Asturias R-11 is not operational...."

http://www.navantia.es/ckfinder/userfiles/files/sala_pr/folleto%20LHD_marzo_para%20navantia_ingles.pdf (2.3Mb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 3 2014, 02:14 PM
QUOTE
Because the success of the F-35B - firstly with USMC - is important to the notion of having F-35Bs on our LHDs then here is some news.... MORE detail at the jump if interested. I just ONLY bring you the good bits. biggrin.gif

The ship as being designed with four mission profiles:

AMPHIBIOUS SHIP: Capable of transporting a Marine Infantry Force to carry out landing , supporting operations on land.
FORCE PROJECTION SHIP: Transporting forces of any army to a theatre of operations.
AIRCRAFT CARRIER: A temporary platform for carrier-based naval aircraft, acting as a flight deck for strategic projection airborne vectors (Navy’s Air Wing), capable of becoming a temporary platform to substitute the aircraft-carrier, “PRINCIPE DE ASTURIAS”, when she is not available due to downtime (repairs, modifications, etc.).
HUMANITARIAN AID OPERATIONS SHIP: NON-WAR operations, humanitarian assistance, evacuation of crisis areas, hospital ship in areas affected by natural disaster, etc.


Thanks for the info on whether the ski jump makes a difference to maximum take off weight or possibly a shorter take off length. How the hell did you get all that in English when the link is all in Spanish!

So anyways you were saying that the Spanish Defence Force have designed the Juan Carlos I with four mission profiles. Obviously you know the specifications well so I'm confused which of those four mission profiles we can't achieve with our LHDs. The ship will be able to land our new Marines (2RAR) and possibly USMC in amphibious mechanized landing craft e.g. Ex Talisman Sabre, transport troops from 1000 standard and 1600 overload to war zones and what it will be mainly used for is Humanitarian relief missions after natural disasters. It can operate F-35Bs and MV-22s after it has had a deck coating in just a couple of "parking spots" not the whole deck surface.

QUOTE
Well one can fixate on THERMION till the cows come home. Something is expensive if it is not needed. If it only needs to be applied where it is needed every decade then sure sounds like good value to me. Stories from your mates are just that. I have photos of CVN decks that make it look very ragtag indeed but that is only the spot where most aircraft have landed catching the target No.3 wire after a long cruise. So - whatever.

THERMION will actually be a better heat conductor to heat the steel deck plates underneath. That is a minor issue. What THERMION does is provide the non-skid surface (especially when wet / icy conditions) so that aircraft and machines and people can move around more safely. THERMION is hard wearing so that - wait for it - it does not need to be applied every 6 months. Go read the PDFs online (download them first).

THERMION or equivalent will be especially important for CVF for SRVL (if SRVL is deemed safe for operational use. SRVL may not be required. Still early days after a decade of development interrupted by the Brits nonsensical switcheroo from F-35B to F-35C and back to F-35B again. Oh those Brits are a barrel of laughs. rolleyes.gif
__________________________

Pushing forward on the stick to go down vertically from a hover still makes my skin crawl. :-)

AUTO STO 450 feet & VL in Simulator - 60 Mins TV

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/f-35-60-minutes-david-martin/


Just a reply about Flight Deck Shipboard preservation. There is no coating on any ship in history that lasts 10 years. Flight Deck Life Cycles are typically short of a year when the ship has been in a deployment rotation. The carriers/LHDs/LSDs/LPDs/DDGs/FFGs/CGs almost always go through flight deck resurfacing during every Yard 'Availability'. This process is expensive enough and the certification is as time consuming as the application. I participated in 2 DDG Flight Deck Resurfacing projects. And I was at one point a crew member on Wasp before I was close looped into my NEC. Ive seen what the Harrier's do to the deck. Ive done quite a bit of deck resurfacing and preservation as I was originally a Boatswain's Mate. A typical non Flight Deck Surface 12 x 12 costs 1200 dollars to resurface in non skid. No labor costs of course. I say 12 x 12 because that is what 1 5 gal can covers. A small deck Flight Deck CG/DDG/LPD/LSD costs 2 times that because of the need to flame/wire spray prep. Now this one does need labor costs added because it can only be done by Civillians. It costs 3000 a can for CVN/LHD ramp area non skid. All in all 5 different grades of non-skid for the whole deck. 12 x 12? for the whole deck you do the math. Carrier don't reapply the whole surface every time but the ramp, yeah all the time.

Yes Thermion is too expensive to re-apply nearly every 12 months. If the US Navy is any evidence, they are not going to apply it to the new LHA's. If the SecNav and NavAir aren't going to flip for it, who would?

Posted by: Luig Jun 3 2014, 03:56 PM
It seems some one here lacks serious memory and or reading skills. Look at the post above dated 27 May this year from moi. This is the relevant part replicated from above post but I guess you will complain that you cannot find what I'm referencing:

http://www.navy.gov.au/fleet/ships-boats-craft/lhd]
QUOTE
"...The [LHD] ship's roles are to:

• embark, transport and deploy an embarked force (Army in the case of the ADF but could equally be an allied Army or Marines), along with their equipment and aviation units, and

• carry out/support humanitarian missions....


NOW I am fed up with your friend B/Sing about THERMION. IF ONLY to get this question settled (but I guess not as you seem to be a troll anyway) I will attempt to make a PDF smaller than the file size allowed here to post here. Otherwise it will go to OneDrive and GoogleDrive. Probably there are named PDFs there but I have not looked specifically for them there lately. The content of these webpages and their folders changes over time. You do not seem willing to download any information. This is the last time I do this specifically.

'F/A-18 Super Bug':
Just answering bollocks questions from 'DailyFail' info and your mythical mates is beyond me. I have gone to a lot of trouble to provide information on the drives online as specified. A lot of your questions would be answered if you cared to download and riffle through them. BTW all can be 'text searched' for a specific word or phrase even. There are usually bookmarks to make jumping around to specific topics easy. But go ahead and disregard all this quality information. What that means however is that I will cease answering your specific questions here.

GO HERE: http://www.thermioninc.com/nonskid.php

Posted by: Luig Jun 3 2014, 05:27 PM
Some SOBRE advice from the Gents re F-35Bs on LHDs....

Jump jets on navy's agenda as Tony Abbott orders air strike rethink 03 Jun 2014 David Wroe

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/jump-jets-on-navys-agenda-as-tony-abbott-orders-air-strike-rethink-20140603-39gl0.html

QUOTE
"Prime Minister Tony Abbott's order to examine turning the navy's amphibious assault ships into aircraft carriers for jump jets will require a major rethink by Defence, top military brass have indicated.

Facing a Senate hearing on Monday, Defence chiefs said little work had so far been done on the possibility of buying a short take-off and vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter - an idea that has seized the interest of the Prime Minister.

Under questioning by Labor defence spokesman Stephen Conroy, defence chiefs confirmed for the first time that Mr Abbott had asked them to look at the merit of buying the F-35B jump jets under the forthcoming Defence White Paper and accompanying Force Structure Review.

Under the proposal, they would be flown from the navy's two Landing Helicopter Dock amphibious assault ships, which are due to come into service over the next 12 to 18 months.

Chief of Air Force Air Marshal Geoff Brown said the force had not asked for the F-35B but added the idea should be examined along with all other credible options.

"Like all things when you have a new White Paper, you should always examine all sorts of options ... It wasn't something the air force has particularly pushed," he said.

He said significant changes would be needed for the LHD ships to accommodate up to 12 of the fighters

"One of the big issues with having fixed-wing aeroplanes come back onto a ship is you've actually got to get them back in poor weather, so there would be new radars required on the ship as well as instrument landing systems, so there'd be some extensive modifications around that."

Chief of Navy, Vice-Admiral Ray Griggs, said further modifications to the ship would include making the deck heat resistant, and changes to fuel storage and fuel lines, weapons magazines and classified compartments for storage.

"This has been a fairly superficial examination up until now because there hasn't been a serious consideration of this capability going into the ship."

Chief of the Defence Force, General David Hurley, said it was too early even to say how the F-35B would fit into the Australian Defence Force.

Much work was needed to decide even how useful they would be, how much they would cost and what sacrifices would be needed to buy them.

"I think we're in a situation where a new government has come in, there's a White Paper been evolving for a while ... The Prime Minister has ... a view about a capability he ... thinks might be relevant to the ADF. He's asked us to look at that.

"We have a process in place at the moment that will allow us to have a look at that and depending on where we come out on that process, we would then go into all those technical decisions about nature of ship and force structure implications for the ADF."

Posted by: Martin Edwards Jun 3 2014, 10:09 PM
I am not taking sides but it is worrying when Tony Abbot's opinion determines Defence Policy and procurement options.

Posted by: Luig Jun 4 2014, 02:57 AM
Not at all. What the pollies interest implies is that:

1. They know something - someone has briefed them either by getting their attention or by their own longstanding interest. If the possibility of F-35Bs on LHDs has been there since day one (current DefMin) then of course there are back of the napkin plans at least.

2. The first LHD comes on line this year. Seems to have gone relatively smoothly. Now there is capability why not investigate that with the asset almost ready to use. No big deal.

I will not reiterate why having occasional use of any Oz F-35Bs on our LHDs is a good idea. As mentioned the bigwigs in ADF have to figure out:

All the things mentioned above and more. Perhaps this idea will bear fruit a decade from now. At least it is worthwhile investigating now that the F-35B is on track along with the LHDs.

Ultimately politicians make the final decision influenced by many factors including their briefings. I'll say again. First we had an all F-35 Airforce. Then we had 2 doz Supers then an extra doz Growlers. What happened to that plan?

Do not be surprised by anything especially if CHIN up north wants to stick their head out.

Perhaps I have not repeated this enough. In early 1960s the RAN had decided to have only an ASW helo force aboard HMAS Melbourne by about 1965. Then the 'konfrontasi' happened. Lo and Behold the RAN changed course to re-instate a fixed wing force which came about onboard by 1969. Youse know the rest. What a turn about due to the changing situation up north. Expect same if the north goes feral.

Posted by: Luig Jun 5 2014, 04:11 AM
Anyone a subscriber?

Air Force looking at F-35B/LHD combination 04 Jun 2014 Nigel Pittaway | Canberra
QUOTE
"The RAAF is looking at the feasibility of operating the STOVL F-35B variant of the JSF off the decks of Navy's two LHD amphibious warfare ships, according to Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Geoff Brown...."

http://www.australiandefence.com.au/news/air-force-looking-at-f-35b/lhd-combination

Posted by: Luig Jun 6 2014, 04:05 AM
At last we get to see some official info about what may be required to modify our LHDs for use by our potential F-35Bs. A 0.5Mb PDF made from the transcript here is available for download from here:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18996 (PDF 0.5Mb) OOps did not realise the link was broken....

Otherwise the entire transcript is online here:

Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee - 02/06/2014 - Estimates - DEFENCE PORTFOLIO

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search/display/display.w3p;db=COMMITTEES;id=committees%2Festimate%2Fc5d61275-a1aa-4194-b861-cfe08f848ab3%2F0001;query=Id%3A%22committees%2Festimate%2Fc5d61275-a1aa-4194-b861-cfe08f848ab3%2F0000%22

Use the EDIT > Search on this page IE function to search for "F-35B" without the quote marks to find the start of the argybargy.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 6 2014, 04:50 PM
QUOTE
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=18996 (PDF 0.5Mb) OOps did not realise the link was broken....


Thanks for this PDF link it answered quite a few questions but unfortunately none of the Brass were willing to "speculate" on anything, maybe they just prefer to live on official estimate or facts.

Lt Gen. Morrison: I think that all of the answers that you have been given from
this side of the estimates table about joint strike fighters do not need any additions
from me.

Senator CONROY: It sounds like it might get in the way of your group. It is not like you have asked for it. Air Marshal indicated they did not ask for it; Admiral Griggs has indicated that he has not asked for it and from the sound of it you have not
asked for it. ‘Abbott aims for aircraft carriers’ is the headline. I am just trying to get an understanding of what is involved in that. Thank you for that. I am happy to
pass over to someone else, Chair, if there is anyone else. I have more questions in
this area but if someone else wanted to jump in; Senator MacDonald is always
keen….

So Admiral Griggs, Lt Gen. Morrison, Air Marshall Brown, and ADF Chief Hurley haven't asked for the F-35Bs so it seems like it is coming from Politicians.

QUOTE
"The RAAF is looking at the feasibility of operating the STOVL F-35B variant of the JSF off the decks of Navy's two LHD amphibious warfare ships, according to Chief of Air Force, Air Marshal Geoff Brown...."


Having the RAAF running our hypothetical F-35Bs would just be double handling and cost more. It would mean embarking RAAF personnel aboard the LHDs such as mechanics, electricians, ordnance handlers, aviation fuel handlers, plane directors, squadron plane inspectors etc.

The rest such as Helicopter landing signal enlisted personnel, Safety observers, Firefighters, Aircraft elevator operators, Tractor drivers and Cargo-handling personnel can all be looked after by RAN personnel.

QUOTE
Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee - 02/06/2014 - Estimates - DEFENCE PORTFOLIO

http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/search...48ab3%2F0000%22

Use the EDIT > Search on this page IE function to search for "F-35B" without the quote marks to find the start of the argybargy.


Took at lot of reading but it just seems that the politicians are asking a lot of questions about whether the billions of dollars being spent on 90-100 JSFs will keep us still powerful in the region and are still worth the investment...

Posted by: Luig Jun 6 2014, 06:16 PM
Here is some info about the CVF:

Start of a momentous year for Carrier project 3 Feb 2014 David Downs
QUOTE
“...On the upper deck, the catwalks around the edge of the flight deck are being prepared and will shortly be painted with a heat resistant paint scheme. This will survive the thermal effects of the exhaust of an F35 jet while hovering on the approach to a vertical landing. This work also entails application of the thermal metal spray coating to the edges of the flight deck. This coating system will later be applied across the whole flight deck...."

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/home/blog/guest-blog/start-of-a-momentous-year-for-carrier-project/1017934.article#ixzz2sGrXdsvd

You still do not seem to understand what was being said. The PM/DefMin have asked that the White Paper due in 2015 process should look at having F-35Bs on LHDs. This was not looked at earlier apparently because it was not a specification of previous White Papers specifically. The ADF Chiefs work out how to implement the White Paper whilst the politicians will eventually OK and be responsible for what happens after that.

In effect the PM/DefMin have asked these chaps to look at the question. They will comply they say and until they have more information on that specific question they will not speculate. Sadly that does not stop you reeling out a list of irrelevant stuff though.

Posted by: Luig Jun 7 2014, 07:42 PM
Only pages about F-35Bs on LHDs repeat PLUS the chat about buying F-35As from the 02 June 2014 Senate Hearing in Australia PDF attached from:

Original PDF: http://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/committees/estimate/c5d61275-a1aa-4194-b861-cfe08f848ab3/toc_pdf/Foreign%20Affairs,%20Defence%20and%20Trade%20Legislation%20Committee_2014_06_02_2526.pdf;fileType=application%2Fpdf#search=%22committees/estimate/c5d61275-a1aa-4194-b861-cfe08f848ab3/0000%22 (280Kb PDF)

Edited PDF: http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=19016 (PDF 200Kb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 8 2014, 03:16 PM
QUOTE
  Here is some info about the CVF:

Start of a momentous year for Carrier project 3 Feb 2014 David Downs
QUOTE
“...On the upper deck, the catwalks around the edge of the flight deck are being prepared and will shortly be painted with a heat resistant paint scheme. This will survive the thermal effects of the exhaust of an F35 jet while hovering on the approach to a vertical landing. This work also entails application of the thermal metal spray coating to the edges of the flight deck. This coating system will later be applied across the whole flight deck...."

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/home/blog/gue...e#ixzz2sGrXdsvd

You still do not seem to understand what was being said. The PM/DefMin have asked that the White Paper due in 2015 process should look at having F-35Bs on LHDs. This was not looked at earlier apparently because it was not a specification of previous White Papers specifically. The ADF Chiefs work out how to implement the White Paper whilst the politicians will eventually OK and be responsible for what happens after that.

In effect the PM/DefMin have asked these chaps to look at the question. They will comply they say and until they have more information on that specific question they will not speculate. Sadly that does not stop you reeling out a list of irrelevant stuff though.


Quote from my US Navy friend regarding the CVF and it's supposed "heat resistant paint scheme...coating system will later be applied across the whole flight deck...":

Never witnessed a F-35 in person. If I stay at my current command long enough, I likely will see the F-35C in action though. I have seen V-22s in action and landing on the carrier.

Anything about the RN is mere speculation though. Everything I have read in your link and elsewhere is either dreamy speculation or best guess. They don't have the ships complete, not even close to doing trials with the F-35 or knowing what will work and won't work. Right now the only precedence they have is by what the USN is having issue with. If they think on that one forum that there will be a lifetime coating they are sadly mistaken.

I think there is some confusion in and around about deck coatings. Thermion and other heat resistant/corrosion resistant deck coatings are not new. They have been around a long time. Thermion and the application on Wasp is a short term solution for a time critical mission. That mission is to torture test the F-35B at sea, integrate the pilots to its operation at sea, train flight deck personell and work platform issues. What the F-35B is doing on Wasp is repetitionally far in excess of what the F-35B will do operationally on LHD's or LHA's. Comments from PAO's are merely defensive in the fact they never say anything in the affirmative for fear that something else will develop.

There are big differences between the LHD/LHA landing areas and the CVN decks of course. What is being described about the deck edge stuff on QE seems to be taken out of context really. There is no reason to protect the entire deck from F-35B jet blast. USN LHD/LHA AV-8 ops and soon to be F-35B ops occur unconventionally. VSTOL approaches do not approach the ramp like traditional fixed wind a/c do on traditional carriers. They will almost always come in at an angle from port abaft the beam, breaks on, to land vertically on a 'Spot'. Which is almost always Spot 5 for VSTOL. In emergency conditions like bingo fuel or hung ordnance, there is a chance they will come in on the centerline. But Ive never seen it, not once. AFAIK QE will employ the F-35B landing over the ramp on centerline and rolling, just because this is the RN methodology for the Sea Harrier. So the whole deck and deck edge coating is merely a normal corrosion control method. There are also other concerns in regards to the QE class. It was designed to be cheaper to build by building to commercial standards and not military standards. Meaning the structures are not as robust and therefore more short lived.

The biggest problem on Wasp has not necessarily been the flight deck. When the F-35B comes in slowly at an angle is has to go over things before it gets to the Spot. Breezeways, Catwalks and platforms. Breezeways and Catwalks contain lesser decking, life rafts and antennae. Platforms contain weapons systems, radomes, etc. These were things unaffected by AV-8's but, now they have to be either moved or reinforced. Since there really is only 1 VSTOL landing spot, the whole deck is not at risk of the heat problems. VSTOL on LHDs and LHAs is roll off centerline and AFAIK there is no heat problem in that regard. The issue is a little overblown.
biggrin.gif

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 8 2014, 03:26 PM
Thank you for the links to the Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee - 02/06/2014 - Estimates - DEFENCE PORTFOLIO even if you have given some different links to the same Estimates hearing.

Posted by: Luig Jun 9 2014, 02:25 AM
Hmmm, the original PDF link is broken - maybe I can fix it - I think because it was a draft it has now been overtaken by a final copy. Anyway the other PDF link was to an EDITED version of the original. Which is not the same thing.

Your mythical friends are amazing. Here is one quote that is just wrong:
QUOTE
''...AFAIK QE will employ the F-35B landing over the ramp on centerline and rolling, just because this is the RN methodology for the Sea Harrier...."


Incorrect. Perhaps the RN/RAF will use sometimes the SRVL Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing for their F-35Bs to increase bringback payload above what is the maximum allowed/available for a vertical landing. At moment this is a 'maybe'.

The RN/RAF Harriers have only ONCE made a rolling vertical landing onboard and that was due to an emergency caused by ground fire during the Falklands War. Otherwise the rolling landing was NEVER done on any RN ships [because it was considered TOO DANGEROUS on their much smaller decks (compared to CVF)].

Otherwise RN/RAF Harriers have in the past transitioned to be over the deck either horizontally or diagonally depending. They certainly have a different way of doing a circuit compared to the USMC flat deck LHA way.

As for the hearsay about THERMION. I only claim what I claim from knowledge gained from news reports at around the time of WASP F-35B testing for example or from the manufacturer website as indicated earlier. I can spin yarns all day long about this and that but how worthwhile these yarns are to anyone is probably not worth bothering with.

As I say the PDFs online have a lot of information about THERMION and how it will be used. IF you and your mythical friends want to have a chat to say something different then please have at it.

AND remember this. The CVF has been designed from the start to be compatible with the F-35B. The WASP was not. Old LHAs not. The latest USS America needs some work whilst it has been said that the next LHA in line afterwards will be compatible with the F-35B totally. What really interests me is the impact of an F-35B on our LHDs (not yet in service). Got any yarns about that?

Posted by: Luig Jun 9 2014, 06:49 AM
Some BiGbOys need THERMION baby.... cool.gif

In era of tight budgets, how many aircraft carriers are enough? 08 Jun 2014 Jon Harper
QUOTE
"...Daly said carrier deployments typically last seven or eight months nowadays, which is sustainable (although six-month deployment would be ideal), but extending that time line would result in excessive wear and tear on the flight decks, making the surface more dangerous for aviators and crew members...."

http://www.stripes.com/news/in-era-of-tight-budgets-how-many-aircraft-carriers-are-enough-1.287563

Photo of a worn USN (probably old) carrier deck will follow:

Development of Multiple-Deployment Nonskid Coatings
Charles Tricou Applied Research Laboratory Penn State University 27 March 2007
QUOTE
"...Durability: Summary ...Durability Issues
• Approximately 80% of CVN flight deck nonskid coatings are replaced following each deployment. Extending the durability and functionality of nonskid coatings to last through 2 full deployments will save the Navy ~ $5M per year.

• Nonskid coatings in arrested landing areas are removed and replaced 2 or 3 times per deployment cycle."...

http://www.ncms.org/wp-content/NCMS_files/CTMA/Symposium2007/presentations/Track%201%20-%20Tuesday/Tues%20T1%200400%20Tricou%20DNSC.pdf (PDF 2.2Mb)

Posted by: Luig Jun 10 2014, 11:20 AM
There is a lot of info at SLDinfo.com as well as elsewhere about the synergy of the F-35 with other networked weapon carrying assets. Here is a recent one:

http://thediplomat.com/2014/06/would-you-like-an-f-35-to-go-with-your-aegis/

How valuable are a few F-35Bs able to network with our RAN assets to fire weapons and vice versa? The USN has NICF-FA and I guess we will have some of that also - eventually.

Posted by: Luig Jun 14 2014, 01:08 PM
If anyone has questions about F-35Bs on CVFs here are some answers:

[CVF] Commons written answers 12th June 2014 Column 238W
QUOTE
"...Joint Strike Fighter Aircraft
Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence what modifications to the original design of the Queen Elizabeth aircraft carriers were necessary to accommodate repeated vertical landings by the Joint Strike Fighter; what estimate he has made of the heat produced by vertical landing by the Joint Strike Fighter which has the heaviest safe configuration to allow the procedure; and whether vertical landings can take place on any flat area of the carrier deck.  [199115]
Mr Dunne: The ability of the ship to support F-35B vertical landings has been incorporated into the design of Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carrier from the outset. Environmental considerations including heat generation and dissipation have been thoroughly evaluated, including assessments from trials on the USS Wasp. UK assessments have covered all necessary aircraft configurations.

The QEC Flight Deck has been designed with specific operating spots for vertical landing to deliver maximum Sortie Generation Rate. These are the spots where the F-35B will plan to land vertically on a routine basis. If required, in the event of an emergency the whole flight deck can support vertical landing.
________________

Angus Robertson: To ask the Secretary of State for Defence at which RAF bases the Joint Strike Fighter can regularly land vertically. [199116]
Mr Dunne: RAF Marham is planned to be the only RAF base in the UK at which the Joint Strike Fighter can conduct vertical landings regularly. [Where THREE Hi Temp Concrete Pads will be built for such a long term (30 year?) purpose.] The Joint Strike Fighter will of course be able to land conventionally and conduct slow landings at other RAF bases."


http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/reply/403669/F35B#reply-403669

Posted by: Luig Jun 18 2014, 02:04 AM
Some old history about F-35B with mention of the VL auto and how much the LiftFan has compromised the F-35 family design...

Joint Strike Fighter PERSPECTIVES Code One Magazine July 1996 Vol. 11 No. 3
Mike Skaff, Pilot-Vehicle Interface [PVI]
QUOTE
"...He [Mike Skaff] is also closely reviewing PVI issues related to specific services." In hover mode," says Skaff; "the pilot does not have much time to make the decision to eject. The Russians have used auto-eject systems successfully on their STOVL aircraft for several years. That system will make for a good JSF trade study. We are also looking at an auto approach and auto landing mode. This flight mode is nothing new for the Navy, but it has never earned its way onto an Air Force fighter."...

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V11N3_SM_1271449318_7528.pdf (13.8Mb)
__________

Joint Strike Fighter PERSPECTIVES Code One Magazine July 1996 Vol. 11 No. 3
Paul Bevilaqua, Lift-Fan System Inventor

QUOTE
Paul Bevilaqua could claim that he has been working on the Marine and Royal Navy variant of the Joint Strike Fighter since 1985, when he began researching short takeoff and vertical landing technologies on a NASA project at the Skunk Works. His subsequent work led to a patent in 1990 for the lift-fan concept used in the Lockheed Martin STOVL variant.

"The goal of those early studies was a supersonic STOVL aircraft," Bevilaqua explains, "but at that point, we were designing airplanes, not inventing propulsion systems. Several companies were conducting similar studies. Everyone was reworking old concepts or looking at new concepts that didn't provide any real advantage. NASA was disappointed in the lack of innovation."

As these studies ended, the Advanced Research Projects Agency asked the Skunk Works if it could come up with any new ideas. "We started from the beginning," Bevilaqua recounts. "First, we looked at all the old ideas that hadn't worked and tried to understand why they hadn't worked. From that study, we made a list of requirements for an ideal supersonic STOVL propulsion system.

"Then we used a variety of brainstorming and creativity exercises to come up with a new concept," Bevilaqua continues. " The technique that worked broke the problem down into its fundamental elements. Since modern fighters have a thrust-to-weight ratio greater than one, the basic problem is to get half of the thrust from the back of the airplane to the front. The simplest solution is to duct it there, but ducting makes the airplane too wide to go supersonic. So we looked for other ways to extract energy from the back, transfer it to the front, and produce lift.

"We generated a lot of wild ideas involving energy beams and superconductivity," Bevilaqua says. "but none worked out until we looked at a variable-pitch turbine to extract power from the jet exhaust. From that point, everything just started falling into place."

From these ARPA studies, the Skunk Works recommended two STOVL approaches: a gas-driven fan and a shaft-driven fan. ARPA liked both of them. "We thought the shaft-driven fan was the better concept," Bevilaqua says. "However, the gas-driven fan was perceived as being less risky. Propulsion engineers are familiar with ducting gases through an airplane. But the idea of shafting 25,000 horsepower was new. People were uncomfortable with the magnitude of the number. But there's really little to fear. The shaft inside a jet engine is already transferring around 75,000 horsepower."

A lift fan concept involves two STOVL-related problems at once. "The lift fan system efficiently transfers thrust from the back of the airplane to the front," Bevilaqua explains. "At the same time, it increases the total thrust of the engine because it increases the bypass ratio from a relatively low one associated with fighter engines to a high one for vertical flight. In other words, it makes the airplane more like a helicopter in the vertical mode.

"The Harrier makes a similar approach," Bevilaqua continues. "It has a large fan to augment the thrust of a small engine core. But the airplane has to live with that fan in the cruise mode. Because the fan is so large, the airplane can't go supersonic.

"Our lift fan approach is like taking that one large fan on the Harrier's engine, breaking it into two smaller fans, and turning off one of the smaller fans when the airplane converts to the cruise mode," he explains. "The concept doesn't compromise the other JSF variants. Our STOVL concept requires twin inlets, what we call bifurcated inlet ducts, to create the space needed for the lift fan. That is the only design requirement. And bifurcated ducts have low-observable and performance advantages that improve all of our JSF variants."

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V11N3_SM_1271449318_7528.pdf (13.8Mb)

Posted by: Luig Jun 18 2014, 03:05 PM
F-35B Engine Exhausts 16 Jun 2014 Defence in the Media (Source: UK Ministry of Defence)
QUOTE
"The Sunday Times yesterday reported that the engine exhausts on F-35B jets can become so hot that the tarmac on RAF runways could melt and potentially put the aircraft at risk. The article goes on to report that as a result the Ministry of Defence will be installing three heat-resistant concrete landing pads at RAF Marham in Norfolk where the F-35B will be based at a cost of £7.5 million.

The article failed to recognise that specialist landing surfaces to sustain the downward heat during vertical landings have always been factored into our planning and budget for this project. All F35-B jets, including those used by the US Marine Corps, require this.

The Lightning II F-35B is only required to conduct vertical landings onto the deck of our new aircraft carriers and for training purposes at their main operating base at RAF Marham. We are not aware of any other requirement for vertical landings elsewhere. Naturally the aircraft will also be able to land in the same way as other aircraft at other land bases.

Source: http://www.blogs.mod.uk/

Cartoon / News Source:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1422839.ece

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 18 2014, 08:09 PM
This may sound stupid but does anybody know what the minimum stopping distance that you can get out of a F-35A/B when doing a conventional landing? Our new LHDs flight deck is 230 metres so I was thinking would you be able to land a F-35B on our LHDs if we were to use a deployable drag chute like the Canadians have down for decades on their CF-18s for landing on short, icy runways.

I tried to look up the F-35 specifications but all 3 variants are listed as "unknown", also on the specs the F-35B has a Take Off Distance of 450ft with the ski-jump.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35-specs.htm

Thanks for the updates Luig!

Posted by: Luig Jun 19 2014, 03:39 AM
Do some research I would suggest. I guess recommending you download and look at the 'How to Deck Land' PDFs would not be helpful to you? It is difficult to know where to begin. Firstly the F-35B can VL on an LHD and that is the end of that.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 19 2014, 01:05 PM
We've discussed this, of course it can Vertically Land and Take Off however it's going to melt the deck of all the ships it's going to land and take off from vertically unless the whole flight deck is coated in anti-heat resistant spray or at least a couple of painted landing spots.

Posted by: Luig Jun 19 2014, 04:19 PM
You have not read a thing - or understood anything at all - it would seem. I'll just ignore your claims from now on.

Posted by: Judwin Jun 19 2014, 08:13 PM
This is worth a read if you're worried about melting stuff.

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co.uk/

Latest roumors from here in Blighty is that at least one F-35B will perform a flypast at the naming ceremony for the first CVF HMS Queen Elizabeth in Rosyth on 4th July. 3 F-35B's (1 RAF and 2 USMC) are due to arrive at RAF Fairford late this month for their European airshow debuts at RIAT and Farnborough.


Posted by: Luig Jun 20 2014, 07:10 AM
Thanks 'Judwin' a good overview there. Online my PDFs have similar & more detailed material (especially about F-35B SRVLs and Ski Jumps) or part material, with URLs pointing to the missing material (in the PDF). Some good stuff there on the web page on the Harrier (which is not featured much in the online PDFs - why? - because they are on the way out).

This 25Mb PDF mentioned at end of the above article has an overview of the UK Harrier History as well as the history of the CONTROL LAWS developed with the VACC Harrier to power the F-35B so easily under the UNIFIED version (by John Farley - an expert in all things Harrier & a pilot / test pilot): [John Farley was one of the instructors who took two A4G pilots onboard HMAS Melbourne in 1977 in a two seat Harrier to demonstrate how 'easy' it all was.]

QUOTE
"John Farley [from PDF below - read Pages 120-127 for UNIFIED CONTROL LAW history via VACC Harrier for F-35B STOVL OPS]
Prior to joining the RAF as a pilot in 1955, John Farley had completed an engineering apprenticeship at RAE Farnborough. Following a tour on Hunters, he was a QFI at Cranwell before going to the ETPS in 1963. He then joined RAE Bedford’s Aerodynamics Research Flight, where he flew both the P1127 and the SC1. Thus began nineteen years of jet V/STOL testing. In 1967, he left the RAF and joined the Dunsfold test flying team. Eventually Chief Test Pilot, he retired in 1983."


http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/research/RAF-Historical-Society-Journals/Journal-35A-Seminar-the-RAF-Harrier-Story.pdf (25Mb)

Another GABRIELE URL to read:

Does it melt the decks or not...? 25 May 2012

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/does-it-melt-decks-or-not.html

Posted by: FlyCookie Jun 20 2014, 08:49 AM
A splendid and highly informed return of fire to much of the rubbish masquerading as informed comment out there in interwebs world has just been posted on the ASPI site.

Excerpts follow.


++++++++++++++++++++++++


LHD and STOVL—An engineer’s view


20 Jun 2014
By Steve George


As a military aircraft engineer, I’ve been associated with STOVL aircraft operations for around 30 years, and have worked on the F-35 program. So I’ve followed the current discussions around potential use of F-35B from the Canberra-class LHDs with interest.

In my view, it’s remarkable how much the debate focuses on the problems that the aircraft would face in operating from those ships rather than the potential benefits to be gained. Assertions abound about the ‘limited’ nature of F-35B operations from an LHD, and the ‘severe challenges’ involved in generating a militarily ‘decisive impact’ from ‘small’ platforms. And yet for 30 years or more the UK and US (using AV-8Bs and Sea Harriers) have delivered significant operational effect from similar platforms. Clearly, STOVL at sea can work. So I’d like to offer a few observations that might assist and inform the debate.

For STOVL aircraft, the Canberra class isn’t a ‘small’ ship. They’re actually much larger than the RAN’s last carrier, HMAS Melbourne, and significantly bigger than the UK’s highly effective Invincible class. Their flight decks are nearly as big as Wasp class LHDs decks, for which the F-35B was designed. Indeed, the Canberra class actually have more suitable decks for F-35B operations; their ski jumps would deliver significantly improved launch payloads and safer launches. The point here is that STOVL is a truly disruptive technology. It allows LHD-sized vessels to deliver a level of maritime aviation capability previously limited to large conventional carriers.


Read the whole thing via the link, here - http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/lhd-and-stovl-an-engineers-view/

Posted by: Luig Jun 20 2014, 10:39 AM
Thanks 'FlyCookie' I'll check it out - meanwhile some good clips of arrests and VLs in this lot....

F-35 Family of Aircraft Published on Jun 19, 2014
QUOTE
"The F-35 family includes the F-35A conventional takeoff and landing (CTOL) variant, the F-35B short takeoff/vertical landing (STOVL) variant, and the F-35C carrier variant (CV). Learn more about all three F-35 variants: http://www.f35.com/variants "

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ6SMmTKns

Posted by: Luig Jun 20 2014, 12:13 PM
And for the concrete heads out there here is some more news.... biggrin.gif Copy/Paste the broken (by spaces) URL below....

High Performance Airfield Pavements (HPAP) Dec 2013 NAVFAC NavAir Facilities Command
QUOTE
"...Economics of the Technology: ROI or Payback
The ROI for a single JSF high temperature concrete VL pad was calculated to be 8.15. Expanding value to the ten vertical landing pads that have already been built increases the ROI to 49.96. These numbers take into account the extra initial investment to build and maintain the pads for 30 years compared to having to constantly replace the pads if conventional concrete is used. The ROI for the ASR [Alkali-Silica Reactivity] part of the project is 36 based on the extension of an airfield pavement life from 12 years to more than 60 years....

...Site Implementation and Specific Applications
Thus far a total of ten high temperature VL pads have been built at Eglin AFB, Duke Field, MCAS Yuma, and MCAS Beaufort with another being planned at MCAS Iwakuni. Simulated carrier decks have been built at Duke Field and MCAS Yuma with another being planned at MCAS Beaufort. ASR mitigation techniques are being implemented on all Navy concrete jobs.

As of now the concrete mixes have performed well under laboratory testing. A limited number of vertical landings have occurred on some of the high temperature concrete VL pads and there still has not been damage caused by the JSF...."

https://www.navfac.navy.mil/content/dam/navfac/Specialty Centers/Engineering and Expeditionary Warfare Center/PDFs/ci_tech_data_sheets/TDS-NAVFAC-EXWC-CI-1402.pdf (83Kb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 20 2014, 01:29 PM
Fair go Luig I'm not spinning your wheels and wasting YOUR time here and I did go back to "OneDrive" and tried to search "'How to Deck Land' in one of the PDFs. I tried to skim and search through the 125 pages on just ONE PDF. So thanks for putting all those PDFs together.

You put a new PDF in every new post (which makes for current discussions) and I apologise if I haven't read every page yet. Some PDFs are 120+ pages long with very small print.

To prove I have been spending a lot of time reading your PDFs and one quotes a US Marine Corp General saying that a a F-35B won't be a true Fifth-generation jet fighter with stealth features until it has Block 3 software (I personally don't know what different software does to the computer in the jets). If I can find out the direct quote again I'll post it, I've got tabs and PDFs open everywhere.

Oh and off on a tangent here but in my opinion if the RAN buys and operates F-35Bs you'll see a rise in Navy recruitment like after the release of Top Gun.

Cheers! wink.gif

Posted by: Luig Jun 20 2014, 03:45 PM
At last you give indication that you have gone to the websites. The best option is to DOWNLOAD the PDFs. Probably due to your specific interest perhaps in the F-35 variants then there are specific F-35 folders with specific F-35 PDFs.

Remember I cannot replicate how you use these sites. My experience is going to be different depending on how I log in or not OR, which web browser I use to do so, and of course with Windows or that other thing.

Again I'll repeat - look at the folders and look at the titles. Download the PDF and then you have it to 'word search' or even 'phrase search' with the latest edition of Adobe Reader suitable for your OS.

NOW that there is a recent 'flood' of F-35B specific info on LHDs and concrete and stuff - I should make new PDFs suitable to upload. However there is only so much I can do in any one day/week/month/year. What is there already is very informative. Sure there is a lot of reading but how else do you gain knowledge?

The opinion of one person is just that. Unless they are the only one to make a decision what they say/think/write is very much irrelevant if the bulk of the opinions etc of the people who are making decisions carries any weight. And of course this is the nub. There are any amount of naysayers out there with the program moving along despite all the 'negatives'. There are many 'positives' that are often dismissed by the naysayers. NOT MY PROBLEM.

IF the USMC have decided (and they can - it is their call) to go IOC with BLOCK 2B then so be it. The USAF go differently later and then the USN later still with the BLOCK 3F - again their responsibility. Do not worry - be happy.

Posted by: Luig Jun 23 2014, 03:44 PM
These pages are the LHD & F-35B & Harrier excerpts from 22 June 2014 edition of ‘A Pictorial History of Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm Skyhawk A-4G & all other FAA Aircraft...’; + ‘How to Deck Land VL & SRVL style’ with Harrier and F-35B examples.

FOLDER: '__LHD & F-35B Info VL + Harrier':

URL: https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=CBCD63D6340707E6&id=CBCD63D6340707E6!298

File Name: LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts.PDF (270Mb)

URL: http://1drv.ms/1ioph3s

RIGHT MOUSE CLICK ON THE ICON or whatever file name seen as above and download this file.

Posted by: Luig Jun 23 2014, 04:26 PM
Osprey MV-22 on Juan Carlos I LHD test 18 Jun 2014:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://www.armada.mde.es/ArmadaPortal/page/Portal/ArmadaEspannola/conocenos_noticias/prefLang_es/00_noticias--2014--06--NT-116-OSPREY-EN-JCI_es%3F_selectedNodeID%3D1754123%26_pageAction%3DselectItem&prev=/search%3Fq%3DMV-22%2BJuan%2BCarlos%2BI%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26hs%3DqDz%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26channel%3Dsb

Posted by: FlyCookie Jun 24 2014, 02:06 AM
This short article just went up on the Flight Global site.

There's a long, detailed introduction and overview article on this subject by the same journalist in the forthcoming (July) issue of Australian Aviation magazine. That article will not be be available online - readers have to buy the magazine.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Australia reveals interest in F-35B



By Andrew McLaughlin


Australian defence chiefs have told a hearing of the Senate’s Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation committee that Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s coalition government is considering whether to acquire a number of short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35Bs.

Canberra confirmed in April it will acquire 58 F-35A Lightning IIs for the Royal Australian Air Force under Project Air 6000 Phase 2A/2B, adding to the 14 already on order to replace the RAAF's Boeing F/A-18A/B "classic" Hornet fleet.

Australia has long-stated a requirement for 100 air combat aircraft. However, because it acquired 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets in 2009-2010 as a bridging capability between the retirement of the General Dynamics F-111C and the introduction of the F-35A, it has deferred a decision on Phase 2C of the project until the early- to mid-2020s.

The F-35B proposal is being pushed by Abbott’s office, and if acquired the aircraft would be fielded from the Royal Australian Navy’s two new LHD-class vessels – the first of which is to be commissioned as HMAS Canberra later this year.

“There has been a White Paper evolving for a while,” chief of the defence force Gen David Hurley said in response to opposition defence spokesman Senator Stephen Conroy. “The prime minister has a view about a capability that he thinks might be relevant to the ADF [Australian Defence Force]. He has asked us to look at that.
"We have a process in place at the moment that depending where we come out on that process, we would then go into all of those technical decisions about the nature of ship and force structure implications for the ADF.”

The two 27,000t LHDs currently under construction in Melbourne, Victoria are based on Spain’s King Juan Carlos 1 (L-61) vessel, built by Navantia. When ordered, the LHDs were intended for amphibious and regional humanitarian assistance missions. They have capacity for a battalion of troops, up to 100 vehicles, four large amphibious watercraft and a dozen or more helicopters to be embarked for such missions.

There has long been an intention to conduct operational ‘cross-decking’ operations with US Marine Corps and UK Royal Navy fixed and rotary-wing aircraft. However, in lieu of a planned Force Posture Review and new defence White Paper being finalised for release in early 2015, there are currently no guiding policy documents or stated strategic imperatives for Australia to pursue the option of acquiring F-35Bs and to operate these vessels as fixed wing aircraft carriers.

HMAS Canberra will be followed by HMAS Adelaide in 2016.

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jun 25 2014, 09:58 AM
Interesting and relevant article: http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/lhd-and-stovl-an-engineers-view/.

QUOTE
Any integration of the F-35B with the Canberra LHDs would have to deliver operational impact in an efficient manner. There’s a key point here, not well understood by those unfamiliar with naval aviation, and it’s this: putting aircraft, stores, fuel, weapons, support facilities and personnel into close proximity on a ship allows for high operational tempos. That has been demonstrated for many years, from the South Atlantic to the Bay of Sirte, and from Korea to Suez. The amount of air capability an LHD deck could generate from five to 10 F-35Bs, and the length of time that could be sustained, would startle anyone who hasn’t done ‘STOVL at sea’. Coupling high-sortie rates with the ship’s ability to minimise distance to the target is the essence of naval aviation: proximity equals capability.


As I have said before, the idea that the RAAF could supply any sort of effective air cover to support maritime operations from land based airfields using conventional aircraft is ludicrous. Time on task and turn around time is all important, you need your aircraft near the action to do this and putting them on ships is really the only effective solution.

Posted by: Luig Jun 25 2014, 12:44 PM
'Nick' "FlyCookie" pointed to that excellent Steve George post above on the 20th June. I'm awaiting more info in future about the specifics required for Oz Bs on LHDs - interesting times that the PM and DefMin get excited about this. laugh.gif

Similar 283Mb PDF about F-35Bs on LHDs and How to do it is now on SpazSinbad Page on GoogleDrive: (same as the one on OneDrive above)

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0BwBlvCQ7o4F_SUZES0VEM2ZvOXM

Folder: RAN LHD + RNZAF A-4K PDFs + Videos

LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 25 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf (283Mb)

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jun 25 2014, 08:53 PM
Fair enough, Luig, I missed that one, d'oh!

Still, some food for thought for those that think naval aviation should be confined to rotary wing aircraft.

Posted by: Luig Jun 26 2014, 01:00 AM
I agree. No worries. Perhaps I have mentioned this however my idea is similar to how the early 8 A4Gs (four on VF-805) were the 'fleet defence' for the ASW carrier and escorts back in the early 1970s. With later more A4Gs the tasks could change depending on requirements. My idea for a few F-35Bs onboard our LHDs is 'as required' for fleet defence and when not required these Bs should disembark and get on with flying with the RAAF 'as required'. I would hope they have a role with the RAAF and then they can jump back onboard as required etc. This quote is instructive however from the past.... The PDF was referenced earlier near the top of the previous (first) page of this thread.

Hobbs was in the RN around my time in the RAN and I think we share similar views about the 'air force' - that is another story. I have been told that air force is more joint these days in Oz and I can believe that. However that was not my experience (nor Hobbs) back in the early 1970s anyway.

CARRIER-BORNE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT Historical and Contemporary perspectives
CMDR David Hobbs MBE, RN (Rtd) The NAVY Vol 72 No 4 Special Oct-Dec 2010
QUOTE
“...Historically, air forces have shown themselves to be the least joint of armed forces, the least adaptive to other people’s ideas and formed on the unsubstantiated political assumption that all future wars would be fought by them, making navies and armies obsolete. Experience shows the need for successful integration of ‘air’ into naval and military operations and questions the need for a third service to support the other two without fully comprehending their needs. The transfer of battlefield support helicopters from the RAAF to the Army Air Corps was a wise move that supports this view. The choice of future aircraft put forward by the RAAF is questionable and demonstrably follows an independent line. The LHDs are being built to a Spanish design with a ski-jump and their Spanish sister-ships are intended to operate the F-35B, STOVL, version of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), itself designed to meet a US Marine Corps requirement to operate as CAS aircraft from US Navy LHDs. The RAAF wants ‘up to’ 100 JSF; to an outsider this offers a straightforward solution since the Australian Defence Force is buying the big deck ships and the CAS aircraft to operate from them. This is not the case since the RAAF insists on procuring the F-35A version of the JSF, designed for the US Air Force and incapable of operation from a carrier or providing support for a distant expeditionary operation. It is not clear why the Australian Government is considering buying an aircraft with such limited potential when it could get so much more for its money by taking a wider view. Air Force politicians will point out that airborne tankers and transport aircraft could relocate maintenance personnel, spare parts and ammunition to a ‘friendly’ air base near the scene of the action. As with the Hunters in Kuwait, however, this would buy up much of the tanker/transport force and prevent it from carrying out other tasks which would no doubt be given lower priority; an inward-looking RAAF view rather than working with others to achieve the best result in the national interest.

There are major issues with the cost of the JSF programme and the high cost of individual aircraft and the unknown cost of their support may deter many nations, including Australia, from buying it in the numbers they originally intended or at all. This is another area that has not yet been debated and deserves to be. The phenomenon of expensive front line aircraft is not new....”

http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/The-Navy-Vol_72_No_4-Oct-2010.pdf (3.2Mb)

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jun 26 2014, 09:12 AM
Interesting read Luig.

In the Nick Thorne Defence Master Plan™, the army would become an even more highly mobile force (like a Marine Corp), eg - no need for main battle tanks etc, and the FAA would assume all front line strike/fighter, ASW & AEW roles while the RAAF, if retained, would become a support force - transport etc. Instead of building large FIXED fighter air bases we should build several more (now what is the word I am looking for? Oh yes,...) aircraft carriers so that we can move the air assets to where they are required when they are required. Actually what we need is a Navy, a FAA and a Marine Corp. wink.gif

OK, not entirely serious, but I am afraid that the domination of defence thinking by ex RAAF fighter jocks has given us an unbalanced defence force that ignores the realities of Australia's place in the world both politically and geographically. We are a maritime nation, our defence force should reflect that. Much of our country is sparsely inhabited and we have no land borders. If we ever need to defend ourselves, or more likely one of our more remote territories, such as Christmas Island for example, we do not have the right equipment or force structure to do it.

We need to be able to move our forces to where they need to be. We don't have and could not possibly afford the heavy lift capability to move significant forces long distances, a job done easily by sea. Of course such heavy lift would be dependent on there being a convenient air base at the destination - can we ask all future enemies to only attack near an air base, pretty please. Ships like the LHDs for moving the ground forces in combination with similarly sized but dedicated fixed wing carrying ships would be a much better investment. In the meantime, let us not nobble our selves by excluding fixed wing assets on the LHDs.

Posted by: Dave Masterson Jun 26 2014, 12:18 PM
Well said Nick...I like biggrin.gif

Posted by: FlyCookie Jun 27 2014, 06:45 AM
The July issue of Australian Aviation is now available.

The LHD/F35B article is well worth looking for, although the Sweetman/APA/Palmer/Davis crowd might not agree.


Posted by: Luig Jun 27 2014, 12:39 PM
Thanks for cover. 'Davis'? Who is?

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 27 2014, 02:31 PM
QUOTE
The July issue of Australian Aviation is now available.


Is this available online somewhere or do I have to spend $12 at the newsagent? I wouldn't mind reading more about our new Growlers...

Posted by: Luig Jun 27 2014, 02:51 PM
I would never buy an iPad nor use one - I wonder why there is no PDF edition available online for PC users? Whatever.

https://itunes.apple.com/wa/app/australian-aviation-magazine/id490008686?ls=1&mt=8

Posted by: Luig Jun 27 2014, 07:20 PM
Back in 2008 John Bird had a say to Parliament Feds: I agree with this part at least....

A SELF RELIANT DEFENCE FORCE 28 July 2008 John Bird Submitted to the Defence White Paper Team
QUOTE
"...RAAF opposition has long been a barrier to the acquisition of a shipborne (integral) air capability. Having long ago lost its control of rotary wing flying, it wishes to retain control of fixed wing aircraft, no matter where they are operated.

This proposal supports that aim and supports the one service control of the F35 and all its support facilities. It requires only that the aircraft is made available to the navy when required, to provide the support with which the air force has long been tasked. The essential difference this time is that would be a credible, an achievable support...."

http://www.defence.gov.au/Whitepaper/2009/submissions/01_Strategy_International/Bird_John.pdf (276Kb)

Posted by: Luig Jun 27 2014, 07:38 PM
Back in the DIM past this signal was promulgated:

SUBJ: ESTABLISHMENT OF AN AVIATION SUPPORT CATEGORY
QUOTE
"1. THE RAN IS SCHEDULED TO INTRODUCE THE TWO CANBERRA CLASS AMPHIBIOUS ASSAULT SHIPS (LHD) DURING THE PERIOD 2014-2016. THE ARRIVAL OF THESE SHIPS WILL REQUIRE NEW COMPETENCIES AND SKILL SETS TO BE MASTERED IN ORDER TO ENSURE THE POTENTIAL AMPHIBIOUS CAPABILITY PROVIDED BY THESE PLATFORMS IS FULLY REALISED. ONE SUCH AREA OF EXPERTISE IS THE CONDUCT OF MULTI-SPOT AVIATION OPERATIONS FROM A LARGE FLIGHT DECK, THE SCALE OF WHICH THE RAN HAS NOT CONDUCTED SINCE THE DE-COMMISSIONING OF THE CVS HMAS MELBOURNE.

2. THE COMPLEX NATURE OF LHD AVIATION OPERATIONS WARRANTS PERSONNEL WITH SPECIALIST TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE TO MASTER THE COMPETENCIES REQUIRED TO ENSURE SAFE AND EFFICIENT MULTI-SPOT FLIGHT DECK AND HANGAR OPERATIONS. ACCORDINGLY I HAVE AGREED TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF AN AVIATION SUPPORT (AVN) CATEGORY TO UNDERTAKE THESE DUTIES ON THE LHD.

3. TO ESTABLISH THE CATEGORY IN SUFFICIENT TIME TO MEET THE LHD INTRODUCTION INTO SERVICE PLAN, COMFAA, IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE DIRECTORATE OF NAVY CATEGORY MANAGEMENT, IS TO ESTABLISH A CATEGORY IMPLEMENTATION MANGEMENT TEAM (CMIT). THE CIMT IS TO DEVELOP AND COORDINATE THE EXECUTION OF AN AVN CATEGORY ESTABLISHMENT PLAN, ENSURING GROWTH OF THE CATEGORY MATCHES LHD REQUIREMENTS.

4. FURTHER DETAILS ABOUT THE AVN CATEGORY WILL BE MADE AVAILABLE WHEN THE CATEGORY DEVELOPMENT PLAN IS FINALISED."


Royal Navy Aviation Aspects of the New Amphibious Ships
Commander David Hobbs, MBE, RN (Rtd) AUSTRALIAN MARITIME ISSUES 2009: SPC-A ANNUAL
QUOTE
"...During operations the LHD’s flightdeck will be a busy and dangerous place. Aircraft handlers and assault logistics specialists must work together to get troops and equipment ashore and back again in the most efficient and effective manner; in RN and US Navy/Marine Corps amphibious ships, the latter group comprises dedicated marines. Without them, the RAN will need to develop its own unique solution, and planning for flightdeck manning is already well underway. The LHDs will have specialised departments for both air and amphibious operations, and likewise being developed is a concept of employment in areas such as flightdeck management and mission planning...."

http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/documents/PIAMA32.pdf

Posted by: FlyCookie Jun 28 2014, 02:56 AM
QUOTE
Is this available online somewhere or do I have to spend $12 at the newsagent? I wouldn't mind reading more about our new Growlers...

Yes it is available online, via the iTunes llnk posted above by Luig. It is not free: Australian Aviation is a business, not a charity.

Luig, Davis = Malcolm Davis wrote a pair of spectacularly stupid and zero-knowledge pieces for the ASPI site.


Posted by: FlyCookie Jun 28 2014, 03:15 AM
BTW so far as I know an iPad or other Apple kit isn't necessary to buy stuff from iTunes.

Maybe someone else here can clarify on that point?

Posted by: Luig Jun 28 2014, 04:36 AM
I am happy to buy the magazine / article online however it seems the PC is / was neglected. AFAIK the initial iTunes on Windows for PCs was iffy - yet by this time (after initial problems) it may work OK on Windows. I'll give it a try soonish. More preferable would be a way for Windows users to download a PDF?

Thanks for info on Davis I'll attempt to check it out without joining FaceBook.

Looking around for 'Davis' I found articles at ASPI. Meanwhile found this one which may interest....

The logic of interoperability Australia’s acquisition of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Adam Lockyer | Winter 2012-13 | International Journal

http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/publications/130430_InternationalJournal_Lockyer.pdf (100Kb)

Posted by: Luig Jun 28 2014, 04:12 PM
Apple - Aust Aviation - iTunes can kiss my whatname. I have spent more than an hour downloading the latest Windows 64 bit iCreepyTunes and spent some time getting 'signed in'. So they send me an e-mail to my address (which is correct) however it is completely blank. DUH. WTF?

I cannot use the store - I have no Apple ID nor will it allow me to create one. An hour of my time so far with no result. End of.

Because I'm an idiot I have spent another hour attempting to confirm (somehow) that I am who I am by responding to THREE more completely empty e-mails. Even the fourth one that was supposed to 'learn' me how to go about confirming with FAQs or whatever was also completely BLANK.

iWateringTunes is now Uninstalled. Thank you and goodnight.

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Jun 28 2014, 08:51 PM
Sounds like you are experiencing F-35 "system architecture" problems Lui tongue.gif

Jokes aside - I did not see that Aus Aviation Journalist pushing/considering the F-35B for Oz in any of his navy/airforce aviation articles prior to the recent hoopla - funny that ain't it all of a sudden he jumped on the band wagon... happy.gif

Posted by: Luig Jun 29 2014, 12:36 AM
Perhaps I'll never know but anyway I had a thought about the BLANK e-mails from the rotten APPLE iStunk asking for 'confirmation' of my ID. (BTW I know who I am.) That was this - THUNK DIFFERUNT: reply using the blank e-mail. WOILA! I see what is inside the otherwise BLANK e-mail with a long URL link that actually does confirm that I exist. I am so pleased. Now the worm ridden iSore will not open because it is closed temporarily. Probably for good in my case. I even downloaded some stinkin' app with an .IPA extension which is actually only good for an iPartWithMySenses iPad. For gorsake do something Aust. Avn. cause you ain't gonna be sellin' much to me.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 29 2014, 06:15 PM
QUOTE
"...RAAF opposition has long been a barrier to the acquisition of a shipborne (integral) air capability. Having long ago lost its control of rotary wing flying, it wishes to retain control of fixed wing aircraft, no matter where they are operated.

2. THE COMPLEX NATURE OF LHD AVIATION OPERATIONS WARRANTS PERSONNEL WITH SPECIALIST TRAINING AND EXPERIENCE TO MASTER THE COMPETENCIES REQUIRED TO ENSURE SAFE AND EFFICIENT MULTI-SPOT FLIGHT DECK AND HANGAR OPERATIONS. ACCORDINGLY I HAVE AGREED TO THE ESTABLISHMENT OF AN AVIATION SUPPORT (AVN) CATEGORY TO UNDERTAKE THESE DUTIES ON THE LHD.

the RAN will need to develop its own unique solution, and planning for flightdeck manning is already well underway. The LHDs will have specialised departments for both air and amphibious operations, and likewise being developed is a concept of employment in areas such as flightdeck management and mission planning...."


So the question remains if we do end up getting F-35Bs for our LHDs is it the RAAF or the RAN FAA going to cover all the maintenance, avionics, electrical, ordnance etc? So when those F-35s are aboard the ships are they going to be operated by organic RAN personnel or would RAAF F-35B mechanics come aboard for the cruise?

It stands to reason that using RAAF rather than the RAN FAA ground crews to maintain the (possible) squadron because they have way more experience in fixed wing fighters, saving the government million of dollars in training. You would have to train RAN FAA personnel from scratch!

Off-Topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7nKtEZZT48

Posted by: Luig Jun 30 2014, 03:47 AM
Probably best to highlight from whence quotes come - rather than just mixing them up. However to answer the question it would appear that the venerable John Bird has the right idea:
QUOTE
"...This proposal supports that aim and supports the one service control of the F35 and all its support facilities [RAAF]. It requires only that the aircraft is made available to the navy when required, to provide the support with which the air force has long been tasked. The essential difference this time is that would be a credible, an achievable support...."

Issue solved [as you yourself seem to suggest]. Probably some Navy Pilots will may fly on exchange with the RAAF or some arrangement or even exchange with RN/RAF or USMC perhaps. You seem to be obsessed with relatively minor details when the big picture 'F-35Bs on LHDs' has not been decided.

As mentioned the old rivalries are likely less severe these days as some people have informed me and my comment is 'I hope so'.

The ADF is used to being flexible I would hope. HOW in the past has the RAN managed to first of all start their own Fleet Air Arm (FAA) back in 1948? Why they dragooned a bunch of RAF and RAAF pilots mostly, with some RN types mixed in as well. You oughta read up on some history. The 4.4GB PDF would be a good start or the older prop aircraft PDFs at the usual sites would contain some hints. Probably if you join the military in some position you will become acquainted with how things work.

Your comments about what the ADF 'must' do are a little ignorant. People are 'trained from scratch' in ADF all the time - including you at some point. Not forgetting that helicopter maintenance (especially on small ships) is no laughing matter. But hey - you knew that - right? Anyway training already experienced helo maintainers in jet maintenance or just helping support them with the RAAF crews onboard will be a no brainer.

The VIDEO about the AV-8B No Nosewheel landing has been highlighted already here:

http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invboard/index.php?showtopic=2542&st=0&#entry15657

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jun 30 2014, 12:58 PM
QUOTE
You seem to be obsessed with relatively minor details when the big picture 'F-35Bs on LHDs' has not been decided.


You're being a bit hypocritical you seem to post a new article every day on even the slightest changes and updates on the F-35A/B and in most posts. I put "ground crews to maintain the (possible) squadrons". I know you personally would love to see the RAN return to a fixed wing FAA. I'm not sure what year you left the RAN and what was your MOS (I don't know the ADF equivalent)?

QUOTE
The 4.4GB PDF would be a good start or the older prop aircraft PDFs at the usual sites would contain some hints.


Are you retired because some of the PDF are huge: http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files...nts/PIAMA32.pdf is over 300+ pages long!

QUOTE
You oughta read up on some history. The 4.4GB PDF would be a good start or the older prop aircraft PDFs at the usual sites would contain some hints.


I did finally fined this in your Goggle Drive SpazSinbad. Even with the fastest ADSL 2+ the 4.4GB file it is taking ages to download. I have now downloaded it and now it says: Format Error: Not a PDF or corrupted. mad.gif mad.gif

QUOTE
People are 'trained from scratch' in ADF all the time - including you at some point. Anyway training already experienced helo maintainers in jet maintenance or just helping support them with the RAAF crews onboard will be a no brainer.


All I'm saying is that training from scratch costs a lot more money rather than using RAAF ground maintenance crews with YEARS of knowledge of fixed wing fighters. So why not deploy RAAF personnel aboard the LHDs for the possible acquisition of F-35Bs rather than train the RAN FAA?

Also where are the possible F-35Bs going to be based on land when not deployed... The RAN FAA based is at Nowra but do they have the ability capability to maintain a fighter squadron there as they have only been for rotary winged aircraft for decades now? The F-35Bs I'm ASSUMING would be located at RAAF Base Amberley.

QUOTE
Your comments about what the ADF 'must' do are a little ignorant.


I'm not here to say they MUST do anything rather just an opinion from layman taxpayer interested in the military. You obviously know a *beep*load more about the F-35 but not has much about the LHDs. For example when our Australian Army Aviation aircraft start landing like the Chinook, Blackhawks and Tiger ARH who is going to "look after them" on the LHDs?

QUOTE
The VIDEO about the AV-8B No Nosewheel landing has been highlighted already here:


Damn it I thought I'd be the first person to look cool and post it but was beaten to the punch happy.gif

Posted by: Luig Jun 30 2014, 02:37 PM
I cannot answer why you cannot view the PDF. However as I have said you must use the latest Adobe Reader for your Operating System. Is this the case?

Does the file size approximately match what you have downloaded?

The SpazSinbad page on Microsoft OneDrive is another source where the 4.4GB PDF is in 100Mb RAR/EXE sizes (.EXE is the first file to double click when all the parts (approx. 46- or 47-) are downloaded into the same directory to then reassemble the 4.4GB PDF. Depending on which one you download you will see me at the front or the back. Or somewhere in the middle.

If you just ask questions here you may receive reasonable answers. However making ignorant statements/ and or assumptions is not a good idea as I have mentioned. You are lucky I continue to answer your 'questions/statements'. Some may disagree on that score - one way or the other.

I'll repeat - for the moment do not trouble yourself with events that may not happen. You need to gain knowledge about more likely events - such as the F-35A for the RAAF and the LHDs and some history of the RAN FAA at least. All these topics are in the 4.4GB PDF or in smaller PDFs at the two websites.

You seem to prefer to ignore my suggestions however. I do not know what MOS means either nor do I care. Some 40 years ago now I last flew an A4G, earlier in mid 1972 I last catapulted from HMAS Melbourne in an A4G. [During my year on VF-805 I was catapulted almost 100 times with some at night. With over 100 deck landings and a devil dozen [13] deck landings at night - including a rampstrike on my second night deck landing touch and go - which did not count however.]

I learnt how to fly in the RAAF during all of 1968 after joining the Navy at beginning of 1966. I left the Navy in mid 1975. I have some 1,600 hours in mostly RAN aircraft, minus the 100 odd hours in a Winjeel with the RAAF at the beginning. I have too many hours in Vampires, Sea Venoms and Macchis, compared to my A4G/TA4G hours; but those were the times when arriving at NAS Nowra beginning of 1969 I had to wait one year for my OFS (Operational Flying School) in the A4G. I did not fly the Sea Venom from HMAS Melbourne however. The RAN Vampires were more or less the same as the RAAF Vampires I trained on, whilst the Macchi MB326Hs were the same exactly.

I have worked on the PDFs for about a decade now. They are comprehensive in many ways - with lots of things omitted probably - but that all depends on the reader. If you have no interest in Naval Aviation in general, or our old Fixed Wing Fleet Air Arm in particular - DO NOT BOTHER TO DOWNLOAD anything.

Yes I am only interested in ships when they can carry fixed wing aircraft. Until recently the LHDs were going to operate only helicopters. I have no interest in helicopters. Boom Boom hence no interest in LHDs until?

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jun 30 2014, 11:23 PM
QUOTE
All I'm saying is that training from scratch costs a lot more money rather than using RAAF ground maintenance crews with YEARS of knowledge of fixed wing fighters. So why not deploy RAAF personnel aboard the LHDs for the possible acquisition of F-35Bs rather than train the RAN FAA?

Also where are the possible F-35Bs going to be based on land when not deployed... The RAN FAA based is at Nowra but do they have the ability capability to maintain a fighter squadron there as they have only been for rotary winged aircraft for decades now? The F-35Bs I'm ASSUMING would be located at RAAF Base Amberley. 


Well, all training starts from scratch. There is nothing magic about fixed wing aircraft that only the RAAF understands. The Navy already conducts maintenance on its aircraft, having F-35Bs will just be another type. Deep maintenance would no doubt be conducted by an external company anyway (neither RAAF nor RAN) as has been the case for decades, so we are only talking about regular maintenance. Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies the F-35B will be just the same.

Why would the aircraft be based at RAAF Amberley? If there were two or three squadrons of F-35Bs, given the lead time for any such purchase there is more than enough time to build facilities at Nowra if there are not existing ones that can be converted.

The experiment of having Air Force aircraft on Naval ships has been tried before. It was not a success and it was proven that the Navy needed control over its its own aircraft, maintenance and aircrews. Nothing has changed that would lead me to think that it would be any different now. The idea that the RAAF can do it all is wrong and frankly dangerous.

QUOTE
I'm not here to say they MUST do anything rather just an opinion from layman taxpayer interested in the military. You obviously know a *beep*load more about the F-35 but not has much about the LHDs. For example when our Australian Army Aviation aircraft start landing like the Chinook, Blackhawks and Tiger ARH who is going to "look after them" on the LHDs?


As an opinionated layman taxpayer interested in the military you come across as one who is grossly ignorant of just what is involved in military service and operations, especially naval ops. You have been pointed time and time again at places where you could potentially gain some knowledge but instead you keep coming on here and spruiking utter nonsense. You simply don't know enough about what you are talking for your opinions to be worth considering. I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day.

Posted by: Luig Jul 1 2014, 02:55 AM
Nick: "...I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day." It is because I'm an old fart these days.... cool.gif And 'the kid' has to start somewhere.

IF and IF the F-35Bs are only on the LHD temporarily on an odd occasion (with copious short exercises of course to keep them in practice) then having the RAAF (with RAN exchange pilots) fly / maintain the F-35Bs - which will mainly be in RAAF service - but as 'BIRD' (or I say more specifically) says have them onboard on a needs basis then I do not see the issues as you see them perhaps.

The punch ups (yep almost had one in the Willytown Mess with a drunken yobbo Miracle pilot haranguing my goodself one time) of yesteryear I'm told have gone. Hooray for that. There was never any need for the RAAF to bully the very small RAN FAA Fixed Wing of that era. But whatever.

I see OUR BINNY has taken over the reins yesterday so here is to a bright future. rolleyes.gif

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jul 1 2014, 02:40 PM
First off Luig thank you very much for your service of our country and I do really mean it. To know your a former fighter pilot is even cooler (sorry if that's the fanboy coming out in me) and looking it up there were only 20 A4Gs built and you were lucky and skilled enough to fly one of them!!

So now I'm reading that 10 of those 20 aircraft were actually lost and two pilots died some I'm glad your still alive mate. So the A4G was introduced in 1967 but I'm reading on Wiki that the HMAS Melbourne didn't see action in Vietnam other than an escort ship for the troop transport HMAS Sydney. I'm sure you would have loved to have served over there. Another point I read is that the A4G that you flew in didn't have the ability to operate guided air-to-ground weapons like the US A4F.

Just so I'm positive these are the TWO drives that you will upload new PDFs and articles to?

Look in the 'Documents & Videos Various' folder on the 'SpazSinbad' OneDrive page here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=CBCD63D63407...6340707E6%21116

and

Similarly on the SpazSinbad page on GoogleDrive in the ''folder will be an LHD pdf "LHD+F-35BinfoJan2013pp123.pdf" same as on OneDrive.

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folder...aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U


MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialty code or basically what is your job description in whatever branch your in...you definitely explained that down to a tee biggrin.gif


QUOTE
Why would the aircraft be based at RAAF Amberley?


Because that's where they have the most facilities, eqipment and logistics, its houses all our Super Hornets, C-17 Globemasters, eventually our EA-18 Growlers and our Airbus A330 MRTT aerial refuelers and thus they can conduct training using different assets and aerial refueling.

QUOTE
As an opinionated layman taxpayer interested in the military you come across as one who is grossly ignorant of just what is involved in military service and operations, especially naval ops. You have been pointed time and time again at places where you could potentially gain some knowledge but instead you keep coming on here and spruiking utter nonsense. You simply don't know enough about what you are talking for your opinions to be worth considering. I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day.


What's your bonafides after about a dozen posts that makes you come here and tell other posters to not give me the time of day? Luig has previously told me to pull my head in before and search questions myself.

However my current question is when our Army helos (Blackhawks, Chinooks and Tiger ARH) are aboard the new LHDs who is going to be responsible for them?


Thank you guys!

Posted by: Luig Jul 1 2014, 03:01 PM
On OneDrive and GoogleDrive my page is called 'SpazSinbad' or 'Spaz Sinbad'.

This is OneDrive: SpazSinbad Main Page then look at FOLDERS:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6

This is GoogleDrive: Spaz Sinbad [join before viewing] Main Page etc.

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0BwBlvCQ7o4F_aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

ONE THING about PDFs: You have not said computer/OS/Adobe Reader version.

IF you have an old computer from say the WinXP days then you will not have the computer resources to view the 4.4GB PDF. IF you still have the PDF that will not open then burn that PDF to a DVD and take it to another computer to see what happens there. Always best to have the latest and greatest computer resources - particularly Windows - about Apple/MACs I have no idea.

And always best to view the PDF from hard drive rather than a DVD.

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jul 1 2014, 11:01 PM
>>(F/A-18 Super Bug,Jul 1 2014, 02:40 PM)
>>>>Why would the aircraft be based at RAAF Amberley?
>>Because that's where they have the most facilities, eqipment and logistics, its houses all our Super Hornets, C-17 Globemasters, eventually our EA-18 Growlers and our Airbus A330 MRTT aerial refuelers and thus they can conduct training using different assets and aerial refueling.

Oh, I see, and those aircraft have exactly what in common with F-35Bs that makes Amberley so much more suitable than, say, Nowra?

>>
>>>>As an opinionated layman taxpayer interested in the military you come across as one who is grossly ignorant of just what is involved in military service and operations, especially naval ops. You have been pointed time and time again at places where you could potentially gain some knowledge but instead you keep coming on here and spruiking utter nonsense. You simply don't know enough about what you are talking for your opinions to be worth considering. I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day.

>>What's your bonafides after about a dozen posts that makes you come here and tell other posters to not give me the time of day? Luig has previously told me to pull my head in before and search questions myself.

The number of posts I may or may not have made on this site has absolutely no correlation with my bonafides (sic) as you put it. I might ask you exactly how much experience have you had in carrier fixed wing operations? I served on VS816 Squadron embarked in CVS-21 HMAS Melbourne, so I do at least have a little experience from which to speak. Additionally I have been a close observer of the whole area of Naval aviation for the thirty years since I left the Navy, and indeed since before that time. That is not a layman's experience, but that of someone who has had inside knowledge of the game and has kept up with developments, because it is an area of abiding interest for me.

Oh, and re-read my post, I never told anyone not to give you the time of day, I do not take kindly to being misquoted.

>> However my current question is when our Army helos (Blackhawks, Chinooks and Tiger ARH) are aboard the new LHDs who is going to be responsible for them?

The same people who will look after them regardless of whether the LHDs embark an air group of F-35Bs or not. The question is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

---

Edit: something weird happened with quoting in my post, edited for clarity

Posted by: Luig Jul 2 2014, 03:59 AM
A PDF on OneDrive and almost the same one on GoogleDrive (just a few added pages in the same time frame) with this name:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791

Folder: __LHD & F-35B Info VL + Harrier
ONEDRIVE: 'LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf' (270Mbs)
____________________________

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0BwBlvCQ7o4F_aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

FOLDER: RAN LHD + RNZAF A-4K PDFs + Videos
GoogleDrive: 'LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 25 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf' (270+Mbs)

IF either one of these PDFs is downloaded a lot of your questions will be answered. Guaranteed.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jul 3 2014, 07:10 PM
Firstly thank you Luig for setting up your two "Drives" and when I get time I will absolutely read them!

QUOTE
Oh, I see, and those aircraft have exactly what in common with F-35Bs that makes Amberley so much more suitable than, say, Nowra?


Again thank you for your service to this great nation!

It means that when training our potential F-35Bs pilots can work together with our Super Hornets and also work on using along Electronic Warfare aircraft as well as hitting the tanker instead of being based down in Nowra flying around by themselves. I haven't even started on the logistics of parts, ground crews and maintenance costs, leave Amberley as our fixed wing aircraft base and leave the rotary winged Navy FAA to Nowra just like where the new MH-60R Romeo Seahawk will be based. However if you think that the NAS Nowra should get them then OK.

Can I please ask an unrelated question? That is although we've used the CH-47 Chinook since back to Vietnam or whenever and that we are actually getting 7 new CH-47Fs however if you had your choice would you buy the Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion or the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey (for our LHDs) (artillery, vehicles lift and for troop insertion/extraction) as our heavy lift rotary aircraft?


QUOTE
Oh, and re-read my post, I never told anyone not to give you the time of day, I do not take kindly to being misquoted.


You said I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day. now you didn't tell him not to give me the time of day yet you did imply "why the *beep* are you wasting your time with this kid. Yes or No?

Posted by: Luig Jul 4 2014, 06:35 AM
No need to pick fights here 'buggy'.

IF RAAF operate F-35Bs in the future then they are best based where training will occur. Depending on how many are bought then IF two squadrons then one may go on permanent deployment around Australia and on an LHD from time to time. Practising bare base deployments around the top end would be useful and of course a lot of time would be spent at bases where these F-35Bs could be maintained as required. The F-35Bs should fit in with whatever the RAAF have in store for the F-35As - just that from time to time they will go onboard an LHD as required. Training on an LHD is part of the deal as one might imagine.

IF only a small number of F-35Bs bought then that is NOT such a big deal as both As and Bs fly the same in conventional mode with the exact same equipment. The only difference in the cockpit is that the 'emergency' hook handle/button for the A is replaced by the 'RED Button' for STOVL MODE.

By all accounts so far the B is very easy to fly in STOVL mode and has been made so over many years of developing the STOVL control laws / incepts via the VACC Harrier beforehand. Use of simulators will enable easy transition for A pilots to B aircraft as required. Of course they will have to practice their new B skills in the aircraft however it is said that 50% of F-35 training time will be in the FULL MISSION SIMULATOR - FMS - which again by all accounts is very realistic and far better than any recent other simulator.

There is also a portable simulator (for those northern bases - which more or less replicates the FMS with fewer screens) while pilots can access a desktop simulator also which are as realistic as the FMS. It is all go for sims these days.

In actual practice the Bs will fit in with the As seamlessly - yes there are airframe differences - plus STOVL mode for pilots - but that is all.

Posted by: Luig Jul 4 2014, 08:32 AM
This is how easy it is to VL the F-35B (USS Wasp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mewdfv0rOM

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jul 4 2014, 02:37 PM
QUOTE
No need to pick fights here 'buggy'.


Roger that Luig and I like the nickname too, I might use it from now on biggrin.gif

I will definitely this weekend go through all your "Drives" and read all the PDFs.

QUOTE
IF RAAF operate F-35Bs in the future then they are best based where training will occur.


So you're saying that IF we get a squadron of F-35Bs they will be operated by the RAAF not the RAN FAA?

So the home base of the two LHDs will be Fleet Base East so where best to base potential F-35Bs in your opinion? So being the armchair general that I am I thought maybe we should have one at Fleet Base East and the other one at Fleet Base West. Fleet Base West receives a lot of port calls from the US Navy from their subs to their Nimitz class aircraft carriers with their escort warships so maybe they could do some joint training exercises and cross decking while they are in the region?

Unless New Zealand invades us like you said these LHDs will be spending a lot of time in the Top End working with the US Marines already up there training with our RAR Battalions especially 2RAR (our new Marines biggrin.gif ) I'm sure you've been to RAAF base Tindal (I don't know how big it is?) in your time in the ADF and it operates F/A-18s with No. 75 Squadron. So is it OK to ASSUME that at least a squadron from 12-24 F-35As would be based there out of the planned 72 with an option for another 28?

Thanks mate! laugh.gif

Posted by: gomer Jul 4 2014, 04:16 PM
Hi Bug
As a veteran of 75Sqn Tindal, yes the base is big enough. The Sqn will acquire F-35A's and answering Luig, there will most probably be a full sim.
IF any "B" models are acquired they should go to Williamtown, this will be the main hub for the -35's.
As an ex-raaffie I was peed-off when they got rid of the carriers and the fixed wing FAA.
My 2 cents worth anyway

Posted by: Luig Jul 4 2014, 05:01 PM
Firstly bugsmasher you need to know what Fleet Base East and West are. All the other stuff about what goes where is already decided for the RAAF F-35As. We have not even got any F-35Bs yet and you want to base them at mythical places. Just get up to speed with what you do not know. That would be magic.

When I first arrived at NAS Nowra beginning of 1969 the Commander Air told a group of us sprogs: "What you don't know - you don't know you don't know". Chew on that.

We found out until the day we die there are things we will never know. Just deal with what is important and all the rest comes along - first you have to know what is important. Find out what Fleet Bases East and West are.

AND another thing which is really silly of you to do. Stop assuming either you know what I am thinking or know what I know. For example as far as I recall I RAAF Tindal did not exist up until the mid 1970s when I left the RAN. As far as flying north I have only ever been up to the airfield at Forster in a Macchi. I never went west to Pearce in an A4G although others did. I went to Woomera in a Macchi though - wow. Mostly our op area was south of Nowra in the early 1970s although it did expand later to include the WEST and Brisbane AFAIK. I went to Willytown a couple of times but that was it in the early years although as I mentioned others ventured further because that is what happened. STOP assuming stuff and riffing off on these imaginings.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Jul 5 2014, 01:23 PM
QUOTE
As a veteran of 75Sqn Tindal, yes the base is big enough. The Sqn will acquire F-35A's


As you stated RAAF Tindal will get ONE Squadron and RAAF base Williamtown will get TWO Squadrons once all of the first batch of 72 are delivered. However it looks like both bases are getting a major investments:

Around $1.6 billion in new facilities and infrastructure will be constructed, including at RAAF Base Williamtown in New South Wales and RAAF Base Tindal in the Northern Territory From RAAF website.

$1.6 billion is a hell of a lot of money to spend on "facilities and infrastructure". Maybe another tin shed hanger or two should do the trick tongue.gif

QUOTE
As an ex-raaffie I was peed-off when they got rid of the carriers and the fixed wing FAA.


Look I'm just a kid here so my opinion lacks knowledge and experience however hear me out. As Australia does not power project like the US does or like the RN once did then there is no need for an aircraft carrier. The Royal Australian Navy since it lost the HMAS Melbourne ceased to be a Blue-water navy. Yeah sure we'll send an Anzac class frigate across to the Persian Gulf or part of an international Task Force combating Somali pirates off near the Gulf of Aden but that's about it isn't it?

I do know that HMAS Anzac fired the first RAN shot in anger since Vietnam (31 year gap) back in the Invasion stage of the 2003 Iraq War being only her 5 inch gun supporting British Royal Marines landings.

Other than that all they seem to be doing from the public POV now is intercepting illegal people smuggling boats (and now turning them back), protecting our northern EEZ from illegal fishing and terrorism on our oil rigs and maybe possible drug runners on a rare occasion. Some buddy told me that it costs about $250,000 a day to keep an Anzac class frigate running and they only have a complement of about 160 sailors. So imagine what these new LHDs are going to cost fully loaded.


@Luig
QUOTE
"What you don't know - you don't know you don't know". You need to know what Fleet Base East and West are.


That's why I'm here to learn! Anyways what am I missing here mate about the Fleet bases? They are our two major Navy bases on both sides of the country. What else is there?

Posted by: Luig Jul 5 2014, 02:42 PM
QUOTE
"...what am I missing here mate about the Fleet bases? They are our two major Navy bases on both sides of the country. What else is there?"


GOOGLE is a good search engine. That would be a start. Why would aircraft be based at a Naval Ship Base? And so on.....

QUOTE
"...$1.6 billion is a hell of a lot of money to spend on "facilities and infrastructure". Maybe another tin shed hanger or two should do the trick..."


Ah the joys of reading one of my PDFs with F-35 material OR just searching the internet eh. I do not know how many FMS the RAAF will buy however AM Brown has said that they will need more. Why? Because a lot of training will occur in the FMS particularly when networked. Why? Because the RAAF plan to operate the F-35A in groups of four. Why? Because they network well along with other networkable assets. Why? Because that is one of the new features of warfare these days. Without a network for SA situational awareness youse are doomed. The US are constantly working to upgrade their networkability particularly now that two stealth aircraft are in the mix they also need stealth comms. The F-35 has MADL and there are ways that the F-22 and F-35 will communicate stealthily in the works then pass that info down the line to be disseminated (in the works also). I'll imagine our RAAF are up on this game also along with the Super Hornets and Growlers.

Infrastructure such as new hangars, extending runways and building new support buildings for new aircraft is never cheap. The RAN is building new infrastructure at Nowra just for the new ROMEOs and has already built new stuff for all the new recent helos including the one that never was (seasprite).

A funny story exists about all the buildings (probably most since demolished these days) at NAS Nowra. The PDFs show the early days after WWII when it was just a couple of dirt strips on cleared land. I would not recognise the place today after 40 years away. Maintaining and supporting modern aircraft is never going to be cheap. No point having expensive aircraft idle because they lack proper support/spares and all the rest.

Posted by: Luig Jul 5 2014, 02:56 PM
SRVLs Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landings will not occur on LHDs nor on USN LHAs however it may be successful on the CVFs as required. Here is a video about them.

SRVL F 35B Demo CVF Sim + extras

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uPWjq23vL0

Posted by: Luig Jul 7 2014, 03:29 AM
USMC spends some money to support MCAS Beaufort training with F-35Bs:

http://www.thestate.com/2014/07/05/3549166/f-35b-training-squadron-arriving.html

QUOTE
"......Classes that start in October will be composed of experienced pilots transitioning to the new aircraft, said Troy Ward, MCAS Beaufort Site Activation Task Force program manager. New pilots will begin training in 2015. Foreign pilots are also slated to train at the air station, but their arrival is still being worked out.

Training will take between six and eight months, but won’t involve much use of the vertical capabilities of the aircraft. About 70 percent of the training uses conventional takeoffs and landings, Ward said.....

...Construction of facilities for the new Joint Strike Fighters began with the groundbreaking for a new hangar and pilot training facility in August 2011. When former air station commanding officer Col. Brian Murtha retired from his post in February, nearly $260 million in construction projects had been completed or started, and an additional $300 million in construction projects had been planned over his tenure.

However, construction of new facilities at the air station for the F-35B won’t be completed until the next decade, Ward said.

“We are just at the end of the beginning of adding facilities that support the F-35,” he said. “We have construction underway on two other projects and will start work on a second F-35 hangar this fall. We will not be complete with F-35 projects until the early 2020s.”..."

Posted by: Luig Jul 7 2014, 12:07 PM
Just in case someone says (Simon?) that the F-35B STOVLie has mucked up the F-35s then copy/paste this little lot. Sadly they will not read the rest of the material from whence came quotes but youse'll did youse best eh. cool.gif

Joint Strike Fighter PERSPECTIVES Code One Magazine July 1996 Vol. 11 No. 3
Paul Bevilaqua, Lift-Fan System Inventor
QUOTE
"..."Our lift fan approach is like taking that one large fan on the Harrier's engine, breaking it into two smaller fans, and turning off one of the smaller fans when the airplane converts to the cruise mode," he explains. "The concept doesn't compromise the other JSF variants. Our STOVL concept requires twin inlets, what we call bifurcated inlet ducts, to create the space needed for the lift fan. That is the only design requirement. And bifurcated ducts have low-observable and performance advantages that improve all of our JSF variants."

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V11N3_SM_1271449318_7528.pdf (13.8Mb)

Genesis of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter 2009 Paul M. Bevilaqua JOURNAL OF AIRCRAFT Vol. 46, No. 6,
November–December 2009 2009 WRIGHT BROTHERS LECTURE
QUOTE
"...The technical challenges involved in designing a single aircraft for all three services were met by designing three highly common, but not identical, variants of the same aircraft. The STOVL variant, which was designed first, incorporates a shaft-driven lift fan in a bay between the inlet ducts and a thrust-vectoring cruise nozzle. The airframe was designed to Air Force specifications, so that the conventional takeoff and landing variant was developed by removing the lift fan and vectoring nozzles from the STOVL variant and substituting a fuel tank and a conventional cruise nozzle. The Naval variant was similarly developed from the conventional variant by increasing the wing area, designing stronger landing gear, and using stronger cousin parts to handle the larger airframe loads associated with carrier takeoffs and landings. Both the STOVL and Naval variants are about 15% heavier than the conventional variant."

http://pdf.aiaa.org/getfile.cfm?urlX=-%3CWI'7D%2FQKS%2B%2FRP%23IW%40%20%20%0A&urlb=!*0%20%20%0A&urlc=!*0%20%20%0A&urld=!*0%20%20%0A (PDF 7.7Mb)

The Influence of Ship Configuration on the Design of the Joint Strike Fighter 26-27 Feb 2002 Mr. Eric S. Ryberg
QUOTE
“...SHIP SUITABILITY DESIGN ‘PENALTY’ page 10 of 11
Because of the numerous factors that influence the design of a ship-based aircraft, many assume these considerations have significantly compromised the mission performance of the CV and STOVL variants. Correspondingly, it is assumed that the remaining CTOL variant carries appreciable "scar impacts" to maintain commonality with its sea-going siblings.

However, the JSF design solution has been quite successful in minimizing the "penalty" of ship suitability....

...the CTOL variant carries virtually no scars as the result of the ship suitability of the other two variants. The JSF program has clearly shown that shipboard compatibility does not have to come at the expense of such critical attributes as lethality and survivability....”

http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA399988 (PDF 1Mb)

Posted by: Nick Thorne Jul 7 2014, 08:25 PM
The unspoken influence on aircraft mission performance for both the Naval variant and the STOVL variant is that the main "penalty" that these versions suffer from is a reduction in range with hardly any actual aerodynamic performance or payload differences. However, this is well offset against the much shorter distance the aircraft have to travel in order to get on task and return. I would suggest that in most mission scenarios, in terms of time on task and number of sorties a given number of aircraft can perform in a given time (in other words the amount of time on task as a proportion of actual elapsed time), the Naval and STOVL versions would out perform the CTOL version by a significant factor in all real world circumstances except where there happened to be a convenient forward air base, close to the action. Of course, that is exactly what an aircraft carrier is, a convenient forward air base.

But hey, what would I know? The RAAF can do it all from Willamtown, Amberley and Tindall... or maybe not so much.

Posted by: Luig Jul 8 2014, 03:16 AM
Heheh, Nick. The F-35B has a Key Performance Parameter (KPP) [which MUST be met by the manufacturers] for sortie generation for each F-35 variant. I'll post that info. Not only will the time to target be shorter (because the flat deck with the B has to be closer due to the shorter F-35B range - which by the way is probably not so much short in actual reality - I'll explain later) but the KPP requires more 'sorties generated' by the F-35B. How cool is that? :-) In the graphic below 'surg' = surge and 'sust' = sustained sorties

The F-35C in use at moment only by the USN will have at least airborne tanker support back at the ship for landing contingencies. However the C requires more fuel onboard overhead (despite the tanker) to take care of all pre-landing contingencies. This amount of fuel required may vary according to the circumstances (where carrier may be in relation to target/threats - weather and any holdups from deck being foul and whatnots). This amount of fuel required for the C can be nebulous so I'll not try to quantify it - however in comparison to the F-35B the difference can be or will be substantial.

Harriers are guaranteed to land - even if no usual spot available they will land in a clear space (or land in an emergency on a nearby suitable spot on another ship etc.) The weather has little influence on the ability of the F-35B to land whereas it is more significant for the F-35C. Yet both will take advantage of JPALS (a new approach technology demonstrated by the automatic carrier landing of the X-47B recently) so that both aircraft will be able to operate in most weather conditions when the flat deck movement is within their respective operating limits. Big CVNs move a great deal in the rolling Pacific swell. There are a nice bunch of videos online about this aspect.

PBS Carrier - Landing on a Pitching Deck Pt. 1.mp4 (PACIFIC SWELLS)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ki8Ji4HQVU
&
PBS Carrier - Landing on a Pitching Deck Pt. 2.mp4 (NIGHT TIME!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTVj_ZSwxGE

Anyway my point is that with the restrictions on the C, and the less amount of fuel required overhead for a VL by the B, then the range of both could be quite similar. However - like the question: "how long is a piece of string" - it all depends.

KPPs can be an artificial way to measure performance and I do not have access to how these KPPs are constructed other than what you see. However it is clear that the 'surge/sustain' sortie rate is going to be recalculated and what that will be in future - again - I have no idea:

Three Reports on the F-35: One of Them Informative 02 Apr 2014 Winslow Wheeler
QUOTE
“...DOD's Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (DASD) for Systems Engineering, Stephen P. Welby.  His March 2014 [I have been told elsewhere that this report is actually from 2013 and a 'bit of a storm in a teacup' - so take the inferences from WHEELER with a grain of salt] "Systems Engineering Annual Report" confirms some of the bad news we have already heard from other DOD testing reports, and the report implies some important contradictions to GAO's prognosis of declining F-35 costs and that there is anything approaching new "efficiencies" that can be understood to justify an estimate of lower cost being in hand.  The bad news comes in four categories: Performance, Reliability, Software and Manufacturing, as follows:

• The F-35 is hiccupping on one of its Key Performance Parameters (KPPs).  It happens to be one that many ignore but which is integral to the aircraft's ability to engage in combat.  The issue is the F-35's "sortie generation rate," or how often it can fly in either combat or-very important-training.  In addition, there are problems in other KPPs where DOD has already relaxed the standard, and there are numerous "non-KPP" thresholds where the F-35 is having problems.  DASD Welby puts it as follows: 

o   "Performance: The program is on track to meet seven of the eight KPPs. An issue with incorrect analysis/assumptions is hampering the attainment of the sortie generation rate (SGR) KPP. The program office is examining the sensitivity of the SGR KPP to establish more operationally realistic ground rules and assumptions. As a result, the program plans to reassess SGR. Although on track, the combat radius, STOVL performance, and CV recovery KPPs have limited margins. During a requirements review this year, the program determined of 62 non-KPP ORD thresholds, 16 are not achievable by the end of SDD based on the current plan, and eight others are at risk of not achieving the threshold. The program identified corrective actions or has way-ahead recommendations."...”

http://www.pogo.org/our-work/straus-military-reform-project/weapons/2014/three-reports-on-the-f-35.html

Posted by: Luig Jul 10 2014, 04:14 AM
Now Lads - I kid thee not - would thoust NOT like to see a few of these with this capability alone on our LHDs? Why the RAAFie Chappies can join in with all their Networkable stuff along with the RAN ships and your uncle is bob. The AIR International July 2014 F-35 Special Edition is excellent value and very informative as seen by this quote below.

Panoramic Cockpit Display
July 2014 David C Isby AIR International F-35 Special Edition

QUOTE
"ELECTRONIC WARFARE SYSTEM
The F-35 Lightning II was designed from the outset with its own electronic warfare (EW) system to enable it to control both the air and the electromagnetic spectrums. The system was developed by a team of leading EW specialists led by BAE Systems at Nashua, New Hampshire. It forms part of the aircraft’s design, alongside its avionics, Communications, Navigation and Intelligence (CNI) and sensor systems.

While all of the aircraft types that the F-35 will replace use EW systems, some of which are very capable against current threats, the F-35’s AN/ASQ-239 enables it to effectively integrate with all of the other onboard systems, each of which is able to inform and interoperate. The aircraft’s network can also link in to larger multi-unit networks, other aircraft or terrestrial platforms via its built-in Multifunction Advanced Data Link (MADL), which allows the EW system to be networked in attack or defence.

The internally mounted AN/ASQ-239 Barracuda EW system built by BAE Systems completed its flight testing in 2005 and entered low-rate initial production soon after, with a unit cost estimated at $1.7 million.

Weighing some 200lb (90kg), it was developed from the BAE Systems AN/ALR-94 EW suite fitted to the F-22 Raptor, and incorporates technologies – best described as ‘emerging’ – to produce greater capabilities with a goal of achieving twice the reliability at a quarter of the cost.

The ASQ-239 system provides radar warning (enhanced to provide analysis, identification and tracing of emitting radars) and multispectral countermeasures for self-defence against both radar- and infrared-guided threats. It is also capable of electronic surveillance, including the geolocation of radars, which allows the F-35 to evade, jam, or attack them, autonomously or as part of a networked effort.

The enhanced capabilities of the ASQ-239 (and integration with the F-35’s other systems) allows it to perform SIGINT (signals intelligence) collection. The aircraft’s stealth capabilities make it possible for an F-35 to undertake passive detection and SIGINT while operating closer to a threat emitter with less vulnerability. When active deception jamming is required, the aircraft’s stealth design allows false target generation and range-gate stealing with less use of power.

The EW system also sends and receives data, status and warning information from other onboard systems via the MADL.

The ASQ-239 has ten dedicated apertures: six on the wing leading edge, two on the trailing edge, and two on the horizontal stabiliser trailing edge. The system can also use other apertures on the jet, most notably the APG-81 Active Electronically Scanned Array radar; and in addition to functioning with the APG-81, the radar array could work as a stand-off jammer when transmitting, but only at high power.

When operating in receive-only mode, the APG-81 provides enhanced SIGINT capability and could also be used, following future upgrades, as an electronic attack weapon. This would enable it to burn out emitters with pure power or inject computer inputs into hostile radars or command and control systems that would provide false targets, misleading information, or cause the system to shut down. Combining these capabilities and the aircraft’s datalink will give F-35s the potential to jam or attack enemy emitters that they locate while defending themselves from threats.

A multi-ship of F-35s will be able collect SIGINT from multiple directions, and then analyse the information gathered to fire missiles, start jamming or launch an electronic attack. Datalinks mean that F-35s can send the information to other platforms in near real-time and have their actions coordinated ‘off-board’, where there will be more access to fused intelligence, greater situational awareness, and less chance of lethal information overload, than in the cockpit of an F-35.

The 513th Electronic Warfare Squadron is part of the 53rd Electronic Warfare Group formed in 2010 at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida and is tasked with introducing the F-35’s EW capabilities at an operational level. A joint squadron with personnel from all US services, the 513th is co-located with the 33rd Fighter Wing, the F-35 school house for pilot and crew chiefs.

The squadron combines the most up-to-date military intelligence with a robust virtual EW range to create operationally tested and verified combat capable mission data tailored to each F-35 variant.

Tactics, techniques and procedures that will be used by the F-35 in electronic combat are being developed by the 513th, which will also provide and update the threat libraries and systems programming to keep the F-35’s systems responsive to changing threats. To do this, the 513th operates a new $300 million reprogramming laboratory at Eglin that opened in mid-2011."

AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014

Posted by: Luig Jul 10 2014, 07:43 AM
RAW POWER July 2014 Chris Kjelgaard, AIR International F-35 Special Edition

QUOTE
"...F135 Propulsion System
The F135 and F119 are both axial-flow engines (air goes through the core of the engine in a straight line) and they share a “highly common core”, Ed O’Donnell, Business Development Director for Pratt & Whitney’s F135 and F119 programmes, told AIR International. From front to back, these two-spool engines are “largely common through the compression system”, said O’Donnell, who noted that the commonality is however mainly in the form of shared engine architecture rather than common part numbers.

Part numbers for the F135 have been designated differently from those for similar components in the F119 because the US armed services want to be able to allocate specific part numbers to particular programmes for inventory management reasons.

Despite their similarities, there are however some crucial differences between the F135 and the F119. One is that the F135 needs to be able to generate up to 43,000lb (191.27kN) of thrust ‘wet’ (with afterburner) for the single-engine F-35, whereas the F119 provides 35,000lb (155.7kN) with full afterburner. So the F135 has a larger inlet diameter (43 inches/1,090mm), larger fan diameter (46 inches/1,170mm) and a larger overall engine diameter (51 inches/1,295mm) than the F119 to achieve a higher airflow.

According to Pratt & Whitney, the maximum thrust of the F-35B STOVL variant is a little lower than that for the F-35A CTOL and F-35C CV variants, at approximately 41,000lb (182.4kN) at full reheat. The F-35B’s intermediate thrust level (that is, dry thrust with no reheat applied) is approximately 27,000lb (120.1kN). The maximum thrust available for a short take-off is 40,740lb ( 181.2kN), while the maximum downward thrust available for hovering and vertical landings is 40,650lb (180.8kN)....

...Aft of the third fan stage the accelerated airflow is split, 57% of it going through the fan duct as bypass air and the remaining 43% entering the core to be compressed, mixed with fuel, ignited and then exhausted as hot gas to turn the turbine stages and produce up to 28,000lb (124.55kN) of dry thrust before afterburner....

...from the outset, the specification for the F-35’s engine called for ‘tri-variant compatibility’ – the engine powering an F-35A is identical to that powering an F-35B or an F-35C. Nevertheless, they are designated differently: the F-35A powerplant is the F135-PW-100; the engine for the F-35C is the F135-PW-400; and the F-35B’s is the F135-PW-600....

...Nor will P&W confirm the dry weight of the F135, but in 2011 an aviation blog cited Warren Boley, former president of Pratt & Whitney Military Engines, as saying the F135 weighs 1,500lb (680kg) more than the F119. This would put its dry weight at around 5,400lb (2,450kg). However, the F135 may have a higher thrust-to-weight ratio than the F119 (the F119’s overall pressure ratio is 26:1 compared with the F135’s 28:1), so the 5,400lb figure might be too high.

Boley also suggested in 2011 that the F135 had an uninstalled wet thrust capability of approximately 51,000lb (226.86kN). If this reads across to an installed basis – in which bleed air and shaft horsepower would be extracted to power aircraft systems, reducing the overall dry-thrust capability by a fraction – it should provide a comfortable operating margin over the 43,000lb (119.27kN) of wet thrust required by the spec....

The Rolls-Royce LiftSystem
...when the STOVL F-35B is hovering, its propulsion system produces very nearly as much thrust without afterburner as the engine does in forward flight with its afterburner fully lit. The F-35B’s engine has to produce 40,650lb (180.8kN) of vertical thrust without afterburner in hover mode, while in conventional flight it produces 27,000lb (120.1kN) of dry thrust and about 41,000lb (182.4kN) with full afterburner.

The F135-powered F-35B relies on two systems to achieve the high level of vertical thrust. First is its full authority digital engine control (FADEC) unit – computers made by BAE Systems and attached to the engine but run on Pratt & Whitney proprietary FADEC software. In hovering flight, the FADEC computers make the engine work harder, increasing dry thrust from 28,000lb to 39,400lb without using afterburner.

Second, the F-35B relies on the Rolls-Royce LiftSystem. This consists of several major components. First is the LiftFan, a horizontally-mounted fan unit located behind the F-35’s cockpit. The 53-inch (1,346mm) diameter, 50-inch (1,270mm) deep LiftFan draws in cold air through a 51-inch (1,295mm) diameter inlet on the top of the fuselage and accelerates it to produce vertical lift [temperature?].

When the F-35B is hovering, the driveshaft delivers 28,000 shaft horsepower to the LiftFan’s clutch-and-bevel-gear system so that the LiftFan provides 18,680lb (83.1kN) of downward thrust as a column of cool air. (In hover mode the F-35B’s coupled F135-driveshaft arrangement acts exactly like a turboprop engine, except that most of its power output is used to drive air vertically rather than horizontally – so the F135 is actually the world’s most powerful turboprop engine when installed in the F-35B.)

In hover mode another 18,680lb (83.1kN) of thrust exits the engine exhaust as hot gas and is directed downwards at the rear of the aircraft by the aircraft’s Three-Bearing Swivel Module (3BSM).... When the F-35B hovers, the FADEC commands the 3BSM – which can direct air through a 95-degree range from 5 degrees forward to horizontally back – to swivel downwards to direct hot engine exhaust air in the same direction as the direction of the cool air produced by the LiftFan near the front of the aircraft.

The 3BSM can swivel fully from horizontal to vertical orientation in 2.5 seconds, completely redirecting its entire 18,680lb of thrust in that time. Together with the 18,680lb of downward thrust produced by the LiftFan and the 3,290lb (14.6kN) of bypass-air thrust directed vertically downwards by the F-35B’s two wing-positioned Roll-Posts (see below) to enable the F-35B to hover, this means the F-35B can turn 18,680lb of horizontally directed thrust into 40,650lb (180.8kN) of thrust directed vertically downward in less than 3 seconds.

This astonishing capability to redirect – in the twinkling of an eye – more thrust than powers two BAE Systems Hawks and, at the same time, more than double its thrust output to turn it into more thrust than powers a Panavia Tornado at full reheat (and nearly as much as powers a fully-reheated Eurofighter Typhoon) is made possible by the F-35B’s enormously sophisticated FADEC software, which was developed by Pratt & Whitney specifically for the F-35B’s propulsion system.

F135 CTOL/CV Engine Design
Maximum thrust 43,000lb (191.3kN)
Intermediate thrust 28,000lb (128.1kN)
Length 220 inches (5.59m)
Inlet diameter 43 inches (1,090mm)
Maximum diameter 46 inches (1,170mm)
Bypass ratio 0.57
Overall pressure ratio 28

F135 STOVL Propulsion System Design
Maximum thrust class 41,000lb (182.4kN)
Intermediate thrust class 27,000lb (120.1kN)
Short take-off thrust class 40,740lb (181.2kN)
Hover thrust 40,650lb (180.8kN)
Main engine 18,680lb (83.1kN)
LiftFan 18,680lb (83.1kN)
Roll-Post 3,290lb (14.6kN)
Length 369 inches (9.37m)
Main engine inlet diameter 43 inches (1,090mm)
Main engine maximum diameter 46 inches (1,170mm)
LiftFan inlet diameter 51 inches (1,300mm)
LiftFan maximum diameter 53 inches (1,340mm)
Conventional bypass ratio 0.56
Powered Lift bypass ratio 0.51
Conventional overall pressure ratio 28
Powered Lift overall pressure ratio 29"

AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014

Posted by: Luig Jul 10 2014, 02:43 PM
Some more GREAT Material from the above magazine. I have not read about the two setting STO throttle before - find it in all the woids below....

Jumping Jack Flash July 2014 unknown author AIR International F-35 Special Edition
QUOTE
“...The DT I test plan was released as a 150-page document, one of the most complex ever written for any aircraft and requiring countless meetings over an 18-month period to finalise. Maj Rusnok said: “That’s a real tribute to the folks with the knowledge base and the wherewithal to write that kind of stuff.”

Pilots, Training and Embarkation Four pilots were selected for DT I: Peter Wilson of BAE Systems and three US Marine Corps test pilots, LtCol Schenk, LtCol Matthew Kelly and Maj Richard Rusnok. Each required ten vertical landings in their pocket as a test plan prerequisite prior to starting workups for the ship. Peter Wilson, the STOVL-lead pilot with the F-35 ITF at Pax, the test conductors and test directors played a pivotal role in the training to get the pilots ready to go. The process involved each pilot undertaking multiple simulator events to mirror the daily morning and afternoon flight periods available on the ship – which lasted for up to five hours and took place between May and October.

Naval Air Systems Command (NAVAIR) simulators at Pax were developed for the test mission and can be linked to the test control rooms on the base. Landing Signal Officers (LSOs) and carrier suitability engineers took part in the simulator training and provided the calls usually made by controllers in the bridge of the ship, primary flight control and the tower. “We started with just the basic mechanics and worked our way into specific test points, emergency procedures and eventually to periods involving every conceivable type of test. You name it, we basically simulated it,” said Maj Rusnok. The next training requirement was Field Carrier Landing Practice (FCLP) at Pax for which a deck painted to look like a ship with instrumentation was set up in the middle of the airfield and equipped with a landing aid used on LHDs.

FCLPs were flown with the support of sailors assigned to Pax with prior LHD experience. Two weeks before embarkation, the entire Wasp flightdeck crew came to Pax for academic training. “We had the fire fighters learning how to rescue a pilot out of an F-35 – because there are so many unique aspects about the jet – and the full deck crew with the air boss and the mini boss running our flight period on the airfield,” said Rusnok.

On the afternoon of October 3, lead government STOVL pilot LtCol Schenk took off from Pax River in BF-02, flew the short distance to the USS Wasp under way off the coast of Wallops Island, Virginia, flew a couple of passes alongside the ship and then executed a vertical landing – the first aboard an LHD-class ship – to ‘spot seven’.

He also made the first launch the next morning, and completed a further three take-offs and landings in the first flight period. Maj Rusnok flew in the second period. Each pilot completed a nominal CQ qualification period inside the envelope before venturing into more interesting pieces of the envelope.

“We didn’t learn anything too crazy. We were pleasantly surprised at what we saw – there was no smoking gun, we didn’t have any near misses and the deck crew was happy with what they were doing,” said Rusnok.

Spray Coming onto the Ship
All of the initial missions flown from the Wasp during DT I were in the daytime and involved the jets recovering to the ship to a ‘case one’ pattern: coming into the break over the top of the ship, turning downwind, and then approaching the ship from approximately one mile aft of the stern.

“We generally come out of a final approach turn somewhere between 375 and 400 feet above the water for a three-degree glide slope to decelerate abeam the ship, usually about a wingspan’s worth off the ship,” said Rusnok. “As we get down and ready to cross the deck we do so at 90 or 45-degrees depending on how our closure is on our control and what the LSO is clearing us to do. He’s really running the pattern.

“At that point we’re somewhere in the vicinity of 110 to 120 feet above the water, and that’s when you start to see some of the wash coming up – but from the pilot’s perspective you don’t even know it’s there. The only time we [the pilots] saw any spray was during tailwind test points, at the edges of envelope. There were no adverse handling characteristics caused by the spray; you just see it because it’s getting blown back towards you as expected.

“There was concern that spray was a potentially big issue. Because we have our closure under control we can keep the aeroplane moving right across the deck, that’s really no issue, but if time is spent dwelling at that position there’s time for a mini tornado to develop – and we see that ashore with dust as well. At sea, generally we didn’t even know it was there and it wasn’t affecting the guys on the flight deck or the tower, so it was a non-event in that respect.” The test events were undertaken methodically, and not at war ops high tempo, to ensure procedures were conducted correctly and that nothing broke.

Aircraft Handling Around the Ship
Maj Rusnok described flying the F-35B around the ship: “The aeroplane in all its basic flying qualities, especially in STOVL mode, is kind of magical, it really is. You sit at 150 feet in a hover and it’s like sitting in this chair except that you’re elevated. The aeroplane is incredibly stable. Hypothetically, you could put a drink on the dashboard and it’s not going to spill.

“If you watch it from the outside, you’ll see the control effectors actually moving very rapidly and making all kinds of corrections – I’m not. They’re not making big swings, but making minute movements, keeping the aeroplane in the rock-steady hover that we experience in flight; and we saw that at sea in just the same way albeit with some forward speed to continue to fly formation with the ship as it moves through the water.”

Taking an aircraft to the ship presents concerns: the salt environment, the potential for disruptive interaction between the ship and the aircraft caused by the burble (the unusual air flow around the ship), the compatibility of the avionics with the ship, and the basic vehicle interface and displays – are there unknowns that have not been thought about?

“We never saw any of that at sea,” said Rusnok. “Was everything perfect? Absolutely not, that’s why we do developmental testing. But do I feel comfortable with a properly trained F-35 pilot, who’s not a test pilot, taking an aeroplane out to sea to do basic daylight landings? Absolutely, based on what we saw, especially in the nominal envelope they’ll provide the fleet with for initial operation.”....

...STO-ing...
...Maj Rusnok noted: “We weren’t only stepping through flying with varying crosswinds but also various centre of gravity load-outs for the aircraft, done with fuel. To achieve the very specific weight bands on the aircraft required to match the model, sometimes we had to refuel on the deck or wait to burn down fuel to meet the requirement of the specific test band. So not very fast launches, but very controlled. We’d take off and burn the fuel down to a specific landing weight to maintain divert options ashore and stay in the weight band.”

There are three ways to conduct a short take off (STO) in the F-35B: stick STO, button STO – and auto STO. “That’s a completely automated way to STO the aircraft off the flight deck. You punch in a distance and the aircraft will auto rotate to its optimal fly-out condition. It’s all based on distance: we know where the aircraft is spotted [before it starts its take-off run] and where it should start its actual rotation,” explained Rusnok. “Unlike a Harrier, which launches off the end of the ship flat, the F-35 rotates at about 225 feet from the bow, sits on two wheels until it gets to the end of the ship and actually takes off, a much different process to a Harrier. From a pilot perspective, you lose some sight of the front of the ship; in a Harrier you can see all the deck. But that’s all part of optimising a 35,000lb aeroplane to get off the ship compared to the Harrier, which is only 16,000 to 25,000lb.”

With stick STO the pilot controls the take-off by pulling back on the stick, holding it there and then rotating to the optimal pitch angle to fly off. In button STO, the pilot uses a trim switch which rotates the aircraft when pushed in, activating it when the aircraft passes the yellow STO rotation line positioned 225 feet from the bow of the ship.

“That was a temporary marking applied on the flight deck for this trial and is now being permanently installed on the ship with lighting,” explained Rusnok. “It’s based on optimising the performance of the aircraft and its flying qualities, so we can get the aeroplane off with the maximum amount of nozzle clearance and performance. The STO line is our visual cue to either pull the stick aft or hit the button; or if you’re on automated STO you should start seeing the aeroplane’s flight controls moving by the line, otherwise the pilot can intervene and pull back on the stick. We’ve never had to intervene.” [joker]

The pilot also has command of the throttle. Two power setting options are available for take-off: Mil STO and Max STO [have not read about this before], as Maj Rusnok explained: “When you taxi to the tram line you stay in mode one, the conventional flight mode. You convert the aircraft into mode four, the STOVL flight mode, and it takes about 15 seconds or so for the doors to open up and the lift fan to engage.

“Then you push the throttle about halfway up the throttle slide into a detent position at about 34% engine thrust request. It sits there and you check the engine gauges: if the readings are okay you slam the throttle to either Mil or Max position and then release the brakes simultaneously. Pushing through to max is like an afterburner detent. But it’s not an afterburner – you can’t go to afterburner in mode four.

“It’s a very fast acceleration. The closest we would spot from the bow is 400 feet, so about 175 feet before we would actually start rotating the aeroplane [at the STO rotation line]; so very, very quick.”

One of the big test points for DT I was to ensure adequate nozzle clearance in all the different test conditions. The engine nozzle swings down and back up during the take-off in accordance with inputs from the aircraft control laws.

“It’s all automated,” said Rusnok. “The pilot is not in the loop whatsoever – either they’re pushing the button and letting the aeroplane do its own thing or pulling back on the stick to help it. Monitoring systems cue when something is wrong, so you have to rely on them to keep you safe because the flight controls are being moved unbelievably quickly.”

Maj Rusnok said the take-off was very much like that ashore, with very little sink off the end of the deck. “The aeroplane is ridiculously powerful in STOVL mode. Just raw, unadulterated power.”

Recovery to the Deck
Generally, each time an aircraft took off it would burn down its fuel load by flying around the ship and making approaches until the appropriate landing weight was reached for the test points required. Landing spots seven and nine were used: seven is the primary location for STOVL jets on LHD ships, while nine is further aft on the tram line. The landing spot selected for each flight was mainly driven by NAVSEA’s environmental engineers who specified a certain number of landings on each one to determine their flow characteristics – and how that affected minimum time between landings – ultimately working up to demonstrate two-ship F-35B operations.

Both spots were instrumented to measure different parameters: seven for deck deflection and nine to measure heat on an experimental non-skid deck surface called Thermion. According to NAVSEA this new coating – a bond of ceramic and aluminium designed to be more resistant to extreme heat, and wear and tear, from flight operations – showed no signs of heat stress during DT I.

“Sometimes BF-04, the mission systems aircraft, would fly instrument approaches to come alongside the ship and side step over to the flight deck . But we were primarily testing compatibility of TACAN and carrier-controlled approaches, not the full transition from an instrument approach across the stern to a landing,” said Maj Rusnok....

...Feedback from DT I
Over the course of the 19-day DT I test period the two jets logged 28 hours’ flight time and completed 72 short take-offs and 72 vertical landings in conditions of up to 33 knots of wind-over-deck and 10 knots of starboard crosswind....

...The Director, Operational Test & Evaluation’s Fiscal Year 2011 Annual Report (DOT&E FY2011 AR) said: “As expected, high starboard crosswinds produced the most challenging environment. One approach to hover prior to a vertical landing was waved off by the pilot due to turbulence in the ship’s air wake.

“A minimal nozzle clearance of two inches was observed at rotation during a short take-off with high starboard crosswinds when the pilot made an aggressive correction to maintain centreline....

...The good story was the tyres. We thought they were going to be eaten up by the non-skid because that’s a pretty rough surface out there. We only changed two.” He was enthusiastic about the aircraft’s performance during DT I: “We’ve proved the F-35B is compatible with LHD ships and we’ll eventually prove that with the UK’s CVF-class ships too. We didn’t hurt anybody, we didn’t break anything and the aeroplane performed outstandingly in terms of flying qualities and maintenance.”

Development Test Phase Two
On August 10, some 21 months after the conclusion of DT I, USS Wasp hosted the follow-on F-35B sea trials – known as Developmental Test Phase Two, or DT II.

Just like DT I, VX-23 deployed four pilots, two jets and a 200-strong team for an 18-day test period. Pilots selected for DT II were LtCol Jimi Clift and Maj Mike Kingen of the US Marine Corps, Squadron Leader Jim Schofield from the Royal Air Force and BAE Systems’ Peter Wilson, the only pilot to fly in both sea trials.

DT II was undertaken to expand the F-35B’s allowable wind envelope for launch and recovery, conduct the first-ever night operations and initial mission systems evaluations at sea, evaluate the dynamics associated with aircraft operations on a moving flight deck and further test shipboard sustainment of the F-35.

“We tried as best we could to keep all the flying fleet-relevant, as opposed to DT I where there were a lot more tests to maintain configuration for longer periods of time,” said Maj Mike Kingen.

Test Events
VX-23 devoted considerable time in 2013 to clearing the envelope to be used onboard the USS Wasp and vigorously testing the In-Service Release (ISR) of the propulsion system. There are two standards of the propulsion system: First Flight Release (FFR) and ISR, each distinctly different in terms of software and hardware. The two aircraft used for DT II incorporated the different standards – BF-01 is an FFR, and BF-05 is an ISR, the only such aeroplane in the SDD fleet.

“That gave us a unique opportunity to take the ISR propulsion system to the boat and compare it back-to-back with the capabilities of the FFR system: we only found very minor differences,” said Peter Wilson, STOVL-lead pilot for the F-35. An ISR propulsion system has more capability than an FFR and is able to cope with wider variations in aircraft centre of gravity (CG), a key factor when bringing weapons back to the boat. With forward CG, such as when weapons are carried internally, the lift fan must produce more thrust than the three-bearing swivel module (3BSM) in order to balance the aircraft at a steady hover attitude. “You have more capability to handle off-nominal CGs but that doesn’t necessarily mean you always have more performance because of knock-on effects. If for example a gust pushes the nose up, the control system has to vary the balance of forces between the lift fan and the 3BSM to bring it down again. All this happens automatically in very quick time such that the pilot doesn’t even know it. But the adjustment process may lose the aircraft a couple of feet because maximum thrust is not always available while adjusting the attitude in the hover. This happened twice during DT II.”

As part of the test programme, VX-23 undertook crosswind and tailwind envelope expansion. This included what Peter Wilson described as “some very interesting test points” with the aircraft positioned with a tailwind – which involved tracking the centreline with various bank angles moving backwards at 25 knots or so, “really testing close to the limits of the propulsion system’s capability. So we’ve hit the corners of the envelope going backwards and sideways”.

VX-23 also conducted vertical landings with a 15-knot crosswind and with expected hot gas ingestion from the ship’s funnels. “We’ve completed extreme descent rates touching down at 12ft/sec and not exceeded the load limits of the landing gear,” said Wilson.

Crosswind testing is an interesting scenario.

There are two ways to achieve the required objective. The pilot can generate crosswind in the hover by turning 90-degrees away from a headwind to generate crosswind from the natural wind and then move sideways over the ground to achieve the required test condition. The wind can be forced to come at any angle to the aircraft. The alternate way is to test when the desired wind speed is available naturally, pedal turning the aircraft until the direction required by the test point is achieved.

“DT II was about crosswind envelope expansion; getting out to 40 knots of headwind; tailwind envelope expansion; and the internal carriage of inert weapons during take-offs and landings for the first time,” said Wilson.

Carriage of weapons in the internal bays moves the aircraft’s CG forward, which makes it behave a little differently. Testing it was a DT II goal. Wilson explained: “We also had to periodically jettison weapons to meet the necessary landing weight. DT II was the first time the F-35B had jettisoned weapons. We also wanted to fly at night, conduct landings with ship motion to increase the loads envelope, evaluate the effects of motion on the control system, and how the pilot would track the motion, and further stress the Thermion flightdeck coating.”

US Marine Corps test pilot LtCol Jimi Clift flew the first night vertical landing on August 14. VX-23 also performed regression testing of the test points that failed during DT I. Take-offs during DT I showed that the nozzle swung, in some angles, just two inches from the flight deck, requiring improvements to the flight control system. “You can’t test that scenario ashore, so we repeated some of the conditions seen during DT I to prove that the corrections made aligned with the simulation,” said Wilson.

Night Ops, HMDS, Mission Systems and Crosswinds
Maj Kingen and Squadron Leader Schofield gained their carrier qualification on the first day of DT II, after which the flight test team was ready to conduct night ops.

“I had a ridiculous grin on my face when I returned to the ready room after my first night mission. I’d never flown a night mission to a boat before feeling anything other than stressed,” said Wilson. “That’s what the Harrier was like at night. You really felt like you got away with it. You’re highly trained so you’re probably going to be fine, but you always knew not much had to go wrong and you’d be screwed. “In the F-35 the experience was so different because it holds the height for you, it looks after you and you can actually leave it alone, which is often the best thing you can do. And it holds a beautiful hover, far better than you could do manually.

“It’s really a task that requires you to just monitor the systems. Having done three vertical landings in about two hours, taking fuel, launching again and returning was a doddle by comparison to the Harrier.”


The testing sought to prove the pilot could improve the night landing task relative to the Harrier by using the naked eye and the Gen II Helmet Mounted Display. “That’s what we did supremely,” said Wilson.

He confirmed that the functionality problems of the Gen II-standard HMDS are not encountered with STOVL operations. “You see effects at sea that you don’t necessarily see ashore. For example, low sun on the horizon can bounce back off the water and potentially wash out some of the HMD symbology. It’s not fantastic, but it’s okay. The primary issue with the helmet occurs when the aeroplane starts to buffet. We don’t get much buffet in STOVL mode and it’s a comfortable ride most of the time.”

Test events were also undertaken while the jets were airborne, as Wilson explained: “We conducted mission system tests to ensure interoperability with the ship: communications, navigation, TACAN and IFF. We also flew instrument approaches in visual conditions by day and by night to simulate our ability to get back to the ship in bad weather.”

Another aspect of STOVL ops tested during DT II determined the effect of wind coming around the ship’s island. When an aircraft is in the hover, the island is on the right. If the wind comes from the right it makes its way around the island and catches the aircraft from various angles. “That makes the hot gas coming out of the ship’s stack come at you, which is bad news. Aeroplanes don’t like ingesting hot gas: it reduces performance,” said Wilson. “We had mixed results, some good, some bad. With the wind coming from ‘round the back of the island, the aeroplane starts to feel like it’s jostling around. And the effects of the hot gas coming from around the front eroded our performance margin, but not to a point we were concerned because the aircraft has the capability to withstand the effects. We opened out to 10 knots of crosswind from the right and 15 knots from the left, which is a super envelope. It was a great success.”...

...During the 18-day sea trial the two jets completed 95 take-offs and vertical landings, both forward and aft-facing, and 17 night take-offs and landings in 10 days of testing.

“It was an extremely successful at-sea period. We hashed out the envelope and we got the fleet something they’re going to be able to work with. In fact we’ve got everything except for elevated sea state,” said Maj Kingen."

AIR International F-35 Special Edition July 2014

Posted by: Luig Jul 16 2014, 06:02 AM
Great explanation by Wizzer about STOVL Mode for the F-35B with the INCEPTS and STO differences with Ski Jump and VLs:

Farnborough Airshow 2014: F-35 Test Pilot Interview 14 Jul 2014
QUOTE
"Aviation Week's Amy Butler talked to Lockheed Martin F-35 test pilot Billie Flynn and BAE Systems test pilot Pete 'Wizzer' Wilson about the F-35 program during the 2014 Farnborough air show."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DFZ0bbLIcQg

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Jul 17 2014, 01:26 AM
Don't know how this one slipped under the radar but Gen Bogdan visited Quickstep at Bankstown recently! Did not know he was in the country!

http://www.quickstep.com.au/news/Lt.-Gen.-Chris-Bogdan-visits-Quickstep-10-March-2014

Apr 8, 2014

The F-35 Program Executive Officer U.S. Air Force Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan met today with employees and management of Quickstep Holdings Limited at their manufacturing facility in Bankstown Airport where high-grade carbon-fibre components are produced for the F-35.

"I was impressed with Quickstep's manufacturing processes and technology, they appear to be world class," said Lt. Gen. Bogdan. "The technologies I saw have great potential to improve aerodynamic performance and help to keep manufacturing costs down. Quickstep's contributions to the F-35 program are highly valued today and will be for years to come."

And speaking of Farnbro slightly off topic I note Bell/Boeing (see http://www.janes.com/article/40720/bell-helicopter-submits-v-280-design-for-jmr-td )

According to Gehler, Bell's team has emphasised cost in its "clean-sheet design" of the Valor. Known for its V-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft, which it builds with Boeing, Bell aimed to provide the speed and agility of a titlrotor design at a relatively low price for JMR, Gehler said.

"We conducted a lot of activity to reduce cost on this aircraft," he said. "You get great performance with a tiltrotor, but cost is sometimes an issue so we decided to take that into consideration from the moment we began designing."

He noted that costs were mainly reduced by dropping weight and increasing reliability. "Every aspect of this aircraft has been looked at from a cost perspective," said Gehler.

For example, the company decided to simplify or outright forego design features such as the automatic wing fold on the V-22 that it saw as unnecessary for JMR.[COLOR=red]

Posted by: Luig Jul 20 2014, 02:27 PM
Carrier countdown 30 June 2014 Tim Robinson
QUOTE
"...TIM ROBINSON talks to some of the engineers responsible for putting the 'air' in aircraft carrier.

“The thing to bear in mind with the QEC,” says David Atkinson, F-35 Integration Lead, BAE Systems, “is the sheer scale of the flight deck. It is just huge — three times bigger than the Invincible-class deck.”...

...Leveraging simulation
Integration of the F-35 with the QEC, in particular, has harnessed the growing power of simulation and synthetic modelling to de-risk the process. Inside a F-35 motion simulator at BAE Warton's facility, test pilots can assess the aircraft in the landing pattern, develop CONOPS (CONcepts of OPerationS) and take-off and land on a ‘virtual’ HMS Queen Elizabeth. The simulation is not bound to the F-35B and QEC either — it can also emulate F-35C and CVN characteristics. Additionally, to enhance realism and develop procedures for take-off and recovery, other multiple ‘virtual’ F-35s can be inserted into the simulations — to allow the pilot to assess how a formation of aircraft would recover to the ship. Says Atkinson: “There is a unique capability here in the UK at BAE Systems at Warton, which is to simulate operation of the F-35 with our, or anybody else’s, aircraft carrier who provides their model to us.” He observes: “It is the result of many years of [flight simulation] experience in the facilties at Warton which has resulted in the leading edge that we have and can bring to bear on these two hugely important programmes.”

Though the F-35B’s advanced fly-by-wire flight control system has taken much of the hard work out of vertical landings — the simulation has already proved its worth in helping test the Shipborne Rolling Vertical Landing (SRVL) manoeuvre, which is a UK-specific landing technique that allows higher ‘bring-back’ (several thousand pounds additional weight) of weapons and fuel — especially in hot climates. SRVL sees the pilot land in hover mode but with forward speed — enabling the wings to generate useful lift. Unlike a traditional carrier approach at 130kts, where the pilot is prepared to ram the throttle open in case of a 'bolter' — the SRVL ends with the aircraft automatically moving the propulsion system to idle and the pilot applies the brakes. Input from test pilots in the simulator has also added SRVL-specific symbology — a ship-referenced velocity vector to the pilots HMDS (Helmet Mounted Display System), to better judge the approach path using this recovery technique.

Lights, camera, action
Indeed the SRVL concept has also made another change in the F-35/QE integration — that of a new stabilised lighting system or ‘Bedford Array'. Independent of the two glide path indicators (for both helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft) in the port catwalk, this proprietary system, developed by QinetiQ and manufactured by AGI Ltd uses LED lights in the deck tramlines to provide a gyro-stabilised glidepath alignment cue and a forward and aft limit line to F-35B pilots carrying out SRVL approaches. The ‘Bedford Array’ approach lighting was trialed with QinetiQ's VAAC Harrier testbed in 2008. Indeed, work on the QEC visual landing aids goes back even further, to the very start of the CVF programme and these aids have been progressively developed using the Warton flight simulator.

The lighting on the QEC is innovative in other ways. Giant TV-style ‘departure boards' on the side of the islands allow information (and even video) to be viewed by flight deck personnel or aircrew sitting in readiness. It can also, if needed, project white light, acting as floodlights for maintenance or other operations at night.

Not your father's ski-jump
The QE-class's ski-jump, too, has been carefully designed and engineered from the beginning... The QEC's ski-jump is longer (200ft) than the Invincible-class (150ft) and designed so that the aircraft has all three (including the nose) wheels in contact right up until the point where the aircraft leaves the deck — giving positive nosewheel authority throughout. Additionally, the F-35Bs smart flight control system ‘knows’ when it is going up a ramp and will pre-position the control surfaces and effectors to launch at the optimum angle to avoid pitch-up or down.

Thermal challenges
However, the biggest engineering challenge in F-35 integration, says Atkinson, is the aero-thermal environment surrounding the hot-exhaust gas of the F-35B and its 40,000lb thrust F135 engine. This challenge is not novel to the F-35 but has been known about since the 1960s and the Hawker Siddeley P.1154, when it was realised that any supersonic P.1127/Harrier follow-on would need extra effort to tackle this problem. Indeed, a scale F-35 hot-gas test rig has been used at Warton for some years to explore the aircraft's external thermal environment.

For the QE-class this has been dealt with in the development of a thermal metal spray to protect the flight deck against high-exhaust temperatures. This says Atkinson, was a unique challenge — while thermal metal spray existed, for use on an aircraft carrier it had to combine heat-resistant properties with those needed by a flight deck — for example the friction characteristics needed to grip aircraft tyres in wet conditions. Thermal proofing measures such as higher temperature resistant paints and shields also extends to the catwalk and liferafts. Says Atkinson: “The historic STOVL knowledge and experience that was developed throughout the 60s to 80s has allowed UK understanding of ground erosion and hot gas to be brought to bear on this aircraft's ship interface.”..."

http://aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blog/2300/Carrier-countdown

Posted by: Luig Aug 6 2014, 08:50 AM
NUSHIP Canberra sails into Sydney Published on Apr 11, 2014 RANmedia
QUOTE
"NUSHIP Canberra made history last month when she sailed into Sydney Harbour for the first time.

The first of two Landing Helicopter Dock ships being built for the Navy, Canberra's visit to Sydney was part of the contractor sea trials and testing program. This program proves systems and equipment prior to the ship being delivered to Defence.

The ship conducted a planned commercial docking in Sydney for a hull clean and final paint. As Canberra docked down, her size and scale was readily apparent.

The Sydney-based ship's company took the opportunity to conduct important familiarisation and induction training while the ship was in her future homeport. The ship's four Duty Watch teams carried out security and damage control training in preparation for taking responsibility for the ship.

Canberra has now departed Sydney to continue contractor sea trials. These trials will include a set of propulsion, speed and endurance trials on the way back to Melbourne.

Canberra is returning to Williamstown to prepare for the final phase of Contractor sea trials involving communications and combat systems."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97CUMkQIYoc

Posted by: Dave Masterson Aug 7 2014, 05:54 PM
Thanks Luig..Good bit of film there. biggrin.gif

Posted by: FlyCookie Aug 16 2014, 08:32 AM
FYI Canberra is back in the oggin for her second round of sea trials.

Posted by: Warhawk Aug 18 2014, 12:48 PM
Apparently a few issues with Nuship Canberra on her shake down cruise,..Propeller (Pod)shaft seal leak, shaft vibrations at speed,.... and a hull crack to name a few. All fixable.

All mappable/mapped and preventable for Nuship Adelaide's shake down cruise now in a few years time.


Gordy
smile.gif

Posted by: Luig Aug 19 2014, 03:08 PM
LHD Juan Carlos I, el gigante español Published on July 17, 2014
QUOTE
"The LHD 'Juan Carlos I' was launched on March 10, 2008 and delivered to the Navy on 30 September 2010 has 231 meters long and displaces 26,000 tons full load. It can reach a maximum speed of 20 knots and has a range of 9000 miles at 15 knots. It has four main decks: deck dock and garage for vehicles and heavy equipment, enabling main deck, hangar deck and garage for cars and light material, and flight deck with SKI-JUMP to port. A provision is made for 261 people: 30 officers, 49 NCOs, 59 corporals and 123 first corporals and seamen."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WofHJmUYTBU

Posted by: Luig Aug 20 2014, 04:27 AM
NUSHIP CANBERRA embarks on final trials 18 Aug 2014 BAE
QUOTE
"MELBOURNE, VICTORIA: NUSHIP CANBERRA, the first of two Landing Helicopter Dock (LHD) ships being built for the Australian Defence Force, has sailed on her final contractor sea trials before delivery to the Australian Government.

The ship departed Williamstown shipyard on 12 August as planned with the trials taking place in both Port Phillip Bay and off the southern coast of New South Wales before returning to Williamstown around the end of August.

Final contractor trials involve testing of the combat and communication systems along with some platform systems trials....

...The final trials also provide an ideal opportunity for a number of the crew to familiarise themselves with the ship following their training at the BAE Systems facility at Mascot, NSW, in which state-of-the-art simulation technology was developed and utilised to achieve technical competence in a cost-effective environment.

As well as demonstrating the ship’s capabilities, the trials will provide the team with valuable feedback regarding the effectiveness of the training program.  The utilisation and extent of virtual training within LHD has been a new approach for the RAN and the feedback received from the crew so far has been very positive...."

http://www.baesystems.com/article/BAES_175743/nuship-canberra-embarks-on-final-trials

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Aug 22 2014, 08:29 PM
I would hope they have finally painted the flight deck!

And the betting will be on at Albatross on who will be the first birdie to "trap" on her! biggrin.gif

Posted by: Luig Aug 23 2014, 02:20 AM
Monitor Coatings to supply U.K. carrier flight deck coatings 22 Aug 2014 MarineLog

QUOTE
“After a two-year test program, Monitor Coatings Ltd. has been awarded a contract to provide a nonskid, thermal gas wash resistant deck coating for the two largest ships ever built for the U.K. Royal Navy, the aircraft carriers HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales.

The lead ship, HMS Queen Elizabeth, is scheduled to commission in early 2017, with initial operational capability from 2020 and has a 19,500 sq.m flight deck.

In May 2012, Monitor Coatings Ltd was contracted to investigate and deliver a suitable deck coating that would withstand the aerothermal environment and gas wash exhaust when the F35B STOL variants of the Joint Strike Fighter that will operate from the carrier conduct a hover transition and vertical landing.

Monitor Coatings contract included the development of techniques required for large scale preparation and application of a Thermal Metal Spray System (TMS) over an area in excess of 19,500 sq.m, the development of process-technology readiness and manufacturing capability levels acceptable for large scale application and long term support for the decks of the two carriers.

The scope of work culminated in a two day demonstration of the process application, quality system and in-service repair program of the Monitor Coatings Thermal Metal Spray System. The demonstration day was well received by senior naval officers and civilians from the marine engineering community.”

http://www.marinelog.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=7611:monitor-coatings-to-supply-uk-carrier-flight-deck-coatings&Itemid=231

Posted by: FlyCookie Aug 24 2014, 04:10 AM
QUOTE (Grumpy Cobra @ Aug 22 2014, 08:29 PM)
I would hope they have finally painted the flight deck!

And the betting will be on at Albatross on who will be the first birdie to "trap" on her!


The flight deck has been surfaced and, indeed, been painted.

Six helo spots to port, along the centre-line, a la RN/Nato specs.

ADF or, more likely, BAE should have some PR photos available soon.

On the F35B front, it's worth getting hold the current (i.e. August) issue of Australian Aviation, as there's a long-form piece by Steve George about some of the technicalities of the idea. Not likely to sway any of the naysayers of received anti-STOVL wisdom in Canberra, but highly recommended reading, nonetheless.

Posted by: Luig Aug 29 2014, 07:21 AM
History of Ski Jump Testing at NAS Patuxent River - soon to be for the UK/Italian F-35B probably (any more Bs?). Single page of this text with graphics of named aircraft may be downloaded here:

http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=19372 (200Kb PDF)

The Kneeboard Winter 2014 Patuxent River Naval Air Museum Association
QUOTE
"Run & Jump!
Aircraft ski jumps interested the military for two reasons. The Air Force and Marines wanted a way for aircraft to operate from the short stretches of runway remaining after airfield bombing attacks. The Navy and Marines wanted a way to reduce the length of carrier flight deck needed for an aircraft to become airborne—without the aid of a catapult. The Air Force decided not to use ski jumps, but the Navy proceeded with the idea. During the late 1970s and early 1980s, the Naval Air Test Center (NATC) performed ski jump tests at NAS Patuxent River using the T-2, F-14, F/A-18, and AV-8 Harrier.

However, the ski-jump design has drawbacks: the forward part of the flight deck is no longer available for parking aircraft and there is less space available for moving aircraft around on the already crowded carrier deck. In addition, the upward push of the ski jump also means that aircraft structures may need to be stronger to bear the extra launch loads. This could lead to aircraft that weigh—and cost—more.

Flight tests showed that the basic theory was sound: all aircraft tested took off in significantly shorter distances than they could from flat decks. But except for the AV-8 Harrier, none of these aircraft ever flew from ski-jump-equipped carriers.

The F-35B VSTOL (Vertical/Short Take-Off & Landing) version of the Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) will soon take its turn on a new ski jump at NAS Patuxent River. These tests will support the Marine Corps and JSF partner nations Great Britain and Italy, which operate carriers designed with ski jumps."

http://api.ning.com/files/xEh6B1KdSWQzOLt*6Obkl-o0BM3q-SWX-dPNkEiSNU4zPiQadll1LZc25fyGf9FsagaZJyoSrzjuoPESusZ4iYKXtOXO6wOC/KneeboardWinter2014reduced.pdf (1Mb)

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Aug 31 2014, 06:14 PM
Hey he might be the "best man for the job" however the new Captain of our newest, biggest most capable warship ever built is a British born Canadian with a thick accent. That will great at RIMPAC making calls over the radio lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWx2AnVQYy8

Posted by: Luig Sep 6 2014, 01:26 PM
This is the sort of testing the F-35C will undergo whilst the F-35B will have and will have had similar testing for the B capabilities with the SKI JUMP and SRVL yet to come.

WHO Introduces VX-23 HOOK14

This squadron does the fixed wing carrier suitability trials with obvious stress testing of the aircraft in all kinds of odd landing situations to try to mimic on land what may happen out at sea:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDUmNUCm29Y

Posted by: Brendan Cowan Sep 6 2014, 02:10 PM
Very funny Phil!

biggrin.gif

BC

Posted by: Luig Sep 6 2014, 03:44 PM
Here is another one from same source. If you are interested in USN NavAv then the TAILHOOK 2014 is on this week end with the streaming videos showing parts of the event (panels of bigwigs mostly talking about NavAv) here:

http://new.livestream.com/wab/tailhook

Shake Rattle & Roll VX-23 Hook14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEGhrsVmoR0

Posted by: Luig Sep 10 2014, 06:58 PM
Stepping-Stones Tony Osborne AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY / SEPTEMBER 8, 2014
QUOTE
"...Particular emphasis has also been placed on how the F-35 will launch from the Queen Elizabeth's ski jump, which gives the aircraft valuable vertical impetus, allowing for greater takeoff weights as well as a positive rate of climb. The F-35B's flight control logic has been written for the Queen Elizabeth's new 12-deg. jump, which at 200 ft. long, is some 50 ft. longer than that used on the Invincible-class carriers.

With the aircraft lined up for takeoff, the pilot presses the short-takeoff-and-vertical- landing (STOVL) switch, activating the lift fan and rear nozzle. The lift fan is fully operational within 15 sec. The F-35B uses the same process and partially opens its weapons bay doors, which help provide more lift. As the aircraft hits the ski jump, its flight control logic recognizes it is on the ski jump and uses the rear nozzle to keep all three wheels on the ground. The aircraft should be airborne at around 90 kt.

"It's a luxurious way to get airborne,'' says Wilson. "The pilot simply uses the pedals to keep the aircraft straight, and the aircraft recognizes the presence of the ski jump." Test pilots have tried out the ski jump only in the simulator, but that work has been very valuable in addressing early concerns about the ground clearance between the ski jump and rear nozzle...."

AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY / SEPTEMBER 8, 2014

Posted by: FlyCookie Sep 12 2014, 06:12 AM
Just to get back to Australia for a moment........the Canberra is due to handed over to the RAN on September 25, and commissioned at Garden Island on November 28.

Recent sea trials went well.

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Sep 13 2014, 02:51 PM
QUOTE
Just to get back to Australia for a moment........the Canberra is due to handed over to the RAN on September 25, and commissioned at Garden Island on November 28.

Recent sea trials went well.


I hope they show us some pictures of the rudder tests like the US Navy does with their Aircraft Carriers:


user posted image

Posted by: FlyCookie Sep 19 2014, 02:58 AM
First helo deck trials scheduled for next March.

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Sep 20 2014, 11:51 PM
QUOTE (Luig @ Jun 26 2014, 01:00 AM)
My idea for a few F-35Bs onboard our LHDs is 'as required' for fleet defence and when not required these Bs should disembark and get on with flying with the RAAF 'as required'. I would hope they have a role with the RAAF and then they can jump back onboard as required etc.

"The F-35B should be operated by the Airforce" argument is complete bollocks! The Airforce does not know how to operate from boats and never will. 35 for 805 I say!

Why "Crabs" should not operate from boats biggrin.gif see below picture - says it all really!

35 for 805 - go on repeat it - you know you like it!

user posted image

Posted by: Luig Sep 21 2014, 03:18 AM
You can be as grumpy as you wish. cool.gif What is different is that there is no fixed wing fleet air arm whatsoever these days. Generating one for the F-35B (but first getting some) in this situation is probably a step too much, IMHO.

Perhaps what is not well understood is that the F-35B by every account is easy to VL. Overall the F-35s are easy to fly to enable pilots to use all the fused sensor information provided to carry out their mission. I would suggest that a VL on a flat deck is no big deal (as has been claimed by those who have never done that before).

IF the RAAF have a role for their F-35Bs ashore most of the time then going onboard as required will be no big deal either. I would imagine that the RAAF may have even more bare base conops in store for their Bs so that shifting to a comfy flat deck would be sheer looxury. In this manner the operation and maintenance for the Bs is on the RAAF and it will be not much different to their A maintenance. Hoorah for commonality.

Having been trained by the RAAF aeons ago now, in a time (late 1960s) when they seemed to be very anti Fleet Air Arm (not just the boggies) when we had a viable fixed wing component then having F-35Bs in the FAA is a no brainer.

I have been told that 'jointness and co-operation' is the order of the day these days in our modern ADF. Good oh. Taking that cue... going afloat every now and then for practice; and perhaps for real, should be easy-peasy for those daring young men in their flying machines - and doable.

One picture says nothing in my deck landing experience. Stuff happens.

For sure ensure that RAN personnel are embedded in the RAAF F-35B operational squadron (no need for a training B squadron, let them learn the way of the B after first doing their training on the A). The RAN aircrew/maintainer component can help disseminate the sea lore required and that should be no big deal. The more low key this all is makes it all that much more doable.

Make a song and dance unnecessarily and the RAAF chaps will not bite the bullet. Politicians may make them however. Best if the RAAF gets there through there own interest in providing fleet defence for all concerned. I'm thinking this aspect has motivated the PM and MinDef interest in same.

user posted image
user posted image

Posted by: Luig Sep 22 2014, 07:57 AM
Plan Jericho - Introducing 5th Generation Capability July 2014 ADM Magazine Nigel Pittaway
QUOTE
"...A STOVL F-358 for Air Force?
CAF also revealed that Air Force is currently studying the potential operations of a short take off vertical landing (STOVL) F-35B from the decks of Navy's new Landing Helicopter Dock ships.

The Abbott government is reportedly interested in expanding the LHD role by the addition of combat jets and analysis is now being undertaken to determine what will be required.

Air Force has previously (and repeatedly) said that the F-35B was not under consideration and that modelling showed the LHDs could be adequately protected by shore-based F-35As.

"Any idea is worth a look at, because the situation changes, circumstances change. STOVLs have their place, they are a more expensive aeroplane, they have a lot less range and they don't have the weapons capability," he noted.

"It depends on how you see the LHD. If you want to convert it to take STOVL, there are a lot of considerations that you have to take into account and JSF/STOVL by itself isn't a capability. It needs weapons and it needs fuel.

"And I think that if you go and look at the changes you have to put in place to operate STOVL off an LHD you will see that it's got its challenges. That's what we'll work through over the next few months is to articulate what those challenges are, what additional cost, if that's the way we decide we want to go."

July 2014 ADM Magazine

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Sep 22 2014, 07:30 PM
Nothing remarkable there - ill informed people with no leadership or vision, that think history is the last 24 hours, keep propagating the no fixed wing argument for Navy - product of the last 30 years, nothing but no fixed wing... nothing but.

Reporters that don't know any better just jump on the band wagon (I did not see one article from them advocating F-35B prior to the recent hoopla) - while I credit you with advocating F-35B for Australia along with the rest of the boys whom used to write on OTR for many years, what is remarkable is that an ex Navy fixed wing jock should advocate a continuation of the "No fixed wing for Navy" status quo...
ohmy.gif

35 For 805! Go on sing it! tongue.gif

Posted by: Aardvark Sep 22 2014, 09:03 PM
Sometimes decisions have to be made with the head not the heart!

Posted by: Luig Sep 23 2014, 06:05 AM
Hmmm.... I would suggest what is doable - for now - preparing for the near future (next decade?). Unless WWIII starts in the next few hours there will be no carrier(s) for any RAN FAA Fixed Wing aircraft to operate from. So there is that.

What we have almost now are 1 (soon two) LHDs which will have the capacity from time to time to embark some F-35Bs - BUT NOT AS THE MAIN PURPOSE of the function of said LHDs however. These LHDs have a role already. Get that sorted and prepare for some F-35Bs in the second tranche in the never never.

I'm no expert on the future though. We'll see. And as for the 'no one has talked about F-35Bs on LHDs in the past' that is just false. The PDF online is not up to date however it does have some of that 'in the past - past my arse' at least stuff. Recently a new 4.4GB PDF is online about the history of RAN Fixed Wing also includes the LHD and F-35A/B stuff relevant.

Folder: LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts

File: LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts.PDF (270Mb)

This 'editorial' is no longer online so you will have to download the PDF to read it.

Shooting down fighter myths MIKE GILLIGAN 10 Jan 2008
QUOTE
"...Now the Royal Australian Air Force is fighting a rearguard action against the decision [bury F-111s], and it won't care which government it has to undermine. It's very practised at it. The parallel with the retirement of the navy's aircraft carrier, HMAS Melbourne, is enlightening.

A colleague once described the aircraft carrier as a "dag on the arse of naval progress". HMAS Melbourne was retired only because we had an astute secretary of Defence who made a cabinet submission available the night the Hawke government was elected, and advised the new government to be expeditious with its commitment. It was.

The F-111s are a malignant dag on the whole-of-defence rump...."

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/shooting-down-fighter-myths/134942.aspx?storypage=0#

I'm no Oz crab hater however I well recall what it was like back in the late 1960s and early 1970s. I'll never forgive - nor forget the crabs of that era.

Posted by: Luig Sep 27 2014, 09:13 AM
General info about QE simulator with take off stats (from the Jump De Sky) at end [which gives a clue for any F-35B OPs off of (Americanism) our LHDs].
Ship Shape F-35/QEC simulator SEPTEMBER 2014 AEROSPACETESTINGINTERNATIONAL.COM; PAUL E EDEN
QUOTE
"...HARRIER LEGACY
Comparisons are frequently made between the F-35B and the Harrier; they are usually misleading. But in the case of BAE Systems’ F-35/carrier flight simulator, earlier work with the legacy jet and Invincible class ships has helped lay the foundations for Warton’s 21st century simulator design. As David Atkinson, F-35 Carrier Integration Lead at BAE Systems, explains, the result is a flexible system with capabilities beyond F-35B: “We’ve been conducting flight simulation at Warton for over 50 years for many projects, including simulating Harriers operating from the recently retired Invincible CVS class. The F-35/carrier flight simulator has been developed to support the integration of the F-35 to the QE class ships. It is, however, capable of simulating F-35C to aircraft carriers with catapults and arrestor gear, and has been used for assessment of various flight control developments for F-35C to CVN and, while the UK was considering a CV-converted QE class ship, for F-35C to QE.”

Unlike the more familiar full mission simulator, the F-35/carrier sim focuses on the near-ship environment, primarily for the assessment of launch and recovery operations, including circuits around the ship. It uses a Lockheed Martin F-35 six-degrees-of-freedom mathematical model validated against extensive flight test data; a QEC ship motion model provided by the Aircraft Carrier Alliance (ACA), based on tank test data; and a computational fluid dynamics (CFD) ship-airwake flowfield that is being further developed and validated by the University of Liverpool.

Realism has been further enhanced by the recent addition of a landing signal officer’s (LSO) station. The LSO’s role will be similar to that aboard an Invincible class ship, but according to Atkinson there will be “a larger workstation and more sophisticated situational awareness aids and information displays”.

Describing the simulator’s design and how the LSO station is integrated, Atkinson continues: “From a physical point of view it has a hydraulic motion platform within a dome and uses motion-cueing algorithms to enable the pilot to feel aircraft motion in a very realistic way, despite remaining very firmly on the ground. High-specification projectors are used, with a very high-resolution projector for the pilot’s forward field of view. It has a second projected screen display to represent part of the FLYCO – the LSO workstation, at which a pilot can operate as an LSO, interacting with the pilot flying the simulator, while watching the aircraft maneuver in real time. The combined motion simulator and FLYCO representation have proved very valuable while developing maneuvers, operating procedures and display layouts.”

SIMULATOR AMBITION
Allowing pilots to fly F-35B approaches in cooperation with an LSO, as they will on the real carrier at sea, is already delivering immense value to the program, but Atkinson says that the simulator is scheduled for much greater capability. “Our ambition is for the simulator to be used for wider purposes than pilot and LSO interactions...."

300 Take-off run in feet from QEC for lightly loaded F-35B

800 Take-off run in feet from QEC for fully loaded F-35B

AEROSPACE TESTING INTERNATIONAL September 2014

Posted by: Nick Thorne Sep 30 2014, 10:13 PM
Not sure if this has been posted here before, but it is an interesting read:

http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/lhd-and-stovl-an-engineers-view/


Posted by: Luig Oct 1 2014, 04:20 AM
Steve wrote an excellent overview of carrier aviation some years back also:

The Particular Mechanics of Carrier Aviation by Steve George 2012

http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/mechanicsofcaropsPTT.pdf (4.6Mb)

OR

http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/2012/03/how-carrier-operations-work/

http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/cvf/

Posted by: Invader26 Oct 1 2014, 08:29 PM
Steve's words accord with the current engineering thinking with our LHD's. The prophets of gloom and disaster will always stir up emotional clap-trap. Calm rational thinking is what is needed.

The F-35B/LHD combo with two ships give Australia a big range of options indeed.

The next challenge that is being looked at is the Amtrak requirements. Taking armour ashore in a barge will not always work [one at a time too]...

Posted by: Luig Oct 2 2014, 08:10 AM
Two carriers take shape at Rosyth 01 Oct 2014 David Downs, ACA engineering director
QUOTE
"...The aviation facilities of the ship are also progressing with installation of the hangar doors, setting to work of the aircraft lifts, installation of the Flyco windows and completing installation of the take off ramp all underway.  Work to reinstate the facilities needed for the operation of STOVL aircraft is ongoing, including modified flight deck landing lights and aids, provision for the Precision Approach Radar, mission rehearsal training provision and enhanced security arrangements in key mission planning spaces.

Of particular interest is the work to provide a heat resistant coating for the flight deck, while also providing the required coefficient of friction and being the expected colour and having the required flight deck markings.

The F35B  - the STOVL variant of the Joint Strike Fighter - that will be embarked on the carriers is very different to the Sea Harrier aircraft that naval aviation in the UK has been based on in recent years.

In comparison the F35B is larger, heavier, with a much increased payload and is capable of Mach 1.6. The installed power in the jet is much larger than the Harrier and when directed downwards onto the deck during a vertical landing, the temperature and pressure of the jet exhaust plume is capable of removing conventional flight deck paint systems.

After extensive research using amongst others the facilities of the hot gas laboratory at BAE Systems Warton, a Thermal Metal Spray coating developed with Monitor Coatings Ltd near Newcastle has been developed.  This coating system has been applied to limited areas of the flight deck with work now ongoing to establish the process and procedures to apply it cost effectively to the entire four and a half acres of flight deck. All this through a Scottish winter and with the ship moored in a quite exposed location!..."

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/blog/two-carriers-take-shape-at-rosyth/1019275.article

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Oct 3 2014, 08:33 AM
A clear sign from the "Gods" that NAVY may end up with F-35B, as the pictures show the Australian roundel on the wing - as we all know Crab Hornets and Mirages were sans the roundel over wing whereas NAVY Skyhawks were proud to display the "Rat" over wing and any other said part of the anatomy of the scooter - so this is clear evidence that NAVY is on the books - in fact rumour has it that these OCU puppies are testing the position and size of the "roundel" for our NAVY admirals before they commit to buy F-35B over lunch biggrin.gif tongue.gif laugh.gif

pic from Australian Aviation
user posted image

Posted by: Invader26 Oct 3 2014, 12:21 PM
even painted "battleship grey"... ph34r.gif

Posted by: Luig Oct 14 2014, 06:45 AM
Interesting FACTOID in this story about the F-35B heat - often quoted as being 1,700 degrees F (which I always thought was the afterburner signature - the F-35B is NOT in A/B during a VL - but anyway...). We have some clues about LHD mods - if required - so not otherwise relevant but context is worthwhile.

Shipshape Amphibious ship upgrades vital to JSF and MV-22 deployments
13 OCT 2014 Michael Fahey AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY; DEFENSE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL
QUOTE
"As the U.S. Navy prepares to commission the "next-generation, aviation-centric" amphibious assault ship LHA 6 America this month, the service and contractor continue to work on modifications. These are geared to making the ship and other large-deck amphibs capable of handling the added heat, downwash and other operational oddities created by the F-35B Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft.

The vertical-landing-and-liftoff operations of both aircraft create a need for structural ship changes, equipment relocation and operational shifts in the amphibious fleet that will carry the aircraft, which represent the linchpins for Marine aviation operations in coming decades.

The Navy is examining new flightdeck coating materials - including a metalized spray coating from Thermion Inc. - which are resistant to the high temperatures created during F-35B and MV-22 operations, Navy officials say. These materials were in trial use on the USS LHD 1 Wasp during F-35B flight developmental test operations and have thus far withstood the high temperatures and "exhaust downwash/outwash."

The Wasp has become a testbed for the amphib assault-ship modifications. The vessel is slated to be completely outfitted and altered for the F-35B by November while the America is scheduled to receive its JSF modifications in late 2015. LHA 7 Tripoli, which is now under construction and 10% completed, will be the first LHA ship to be delivered "fully ready to integrate the entire future air combat element of the Marine Corps to include the F-35B." Navy officials say.

The Navy identified more than a half-dozen "cornerstone" ship changes for LHD ships Nos. 1-8 that cost roughly $20 million. These include: voltage regulators; Autonomic Logistics Information System (ALIS), JSF weapons support; off-board mission support; and expendable countermeasures stowage.

The service also identified more than a dozen changes costing $34 milljon for shops, services and "external environments." These include: communications equipment and systems; warfare systems; firefighting protection; ventilation; JP-5 fuel station protection; fiight deck structures; life-raft stowage relocation; aviation weapons; safety nets and Life rails; and lithium-ion battery stowage.

The Navy continues to study the logistics support necessary for F-35B operations....

...Heat and stress continue to be priority problems for the aircraft. The F-35B creates 10-20 sec. of thermal input - 400-500F exhaust - during landings, Navy documents show, apparently requiring a 12 X 12-ft. steel plate 1-in. thick for specific primary landing spots to dissipate intense heat and prevent deck warping. There also is concern about "built-up thermal loading with multiple close-sequence landings."..."

13 OCT 2014 AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY; DEFENSE TECHNOLOGY INTERNATIONAL

Posted by: F/A-18 Super Bug Oct 14 2014, 12:54 PM
QUOTE
even painted "battleship grey"... ph34r.gif


So it looks like we have decided or have no say on what colour our new F-35As "battleship grey" or nearly black come off the production line...

Maybe Luig can comment on this having been up in the clouds so is it harder to see the light grey of our current types of Hornets compared to Russian Flankers painted in a sky blue and white camouflage bleow?

user posted image

Compared to what other nations do with their air superiority fighters like the Sukhoi Su-27:

user posted image

or

user posted image

QUOTE
Interesting FACTOID in this story about the F-35B heat - often quoted as being 1,700 degrees F (which I always thought was the afterburner signature - the F-35B is NOT in A/B during a VL - but anyway...). We have some clues about LHD mods - if required - so not otherwise relevant but context is worthwhile.


So we've been discussing for months this year that any LHD (whether US, UK or even us) would need a certain type of Thermion coating for the F-35B exhaust on a VL.

Cheers.

Posted by: Luig Oct 16 2014, 04:01 PM
NUSHIP Canberra trials lately have gone well with ship likely to handed to RAN soonish. Meanwhile training for deck crew takes place at NAS Nowra on DUMMY DECK shown in VIDEO (and in a large simulator building in Sydney - not shown).

SEARCH for more videos using 'NUSHIP' at main page URL below.
QUOTE
NUSHIP Canberra Live Aircraft Collective Training
Date: 26.08.2014 Duration: 2:11 RAN

"NUSHIP Canberra's Air Department conducted collective training with live aircraft on the multispot "dummy" deck which is used for Landing Helicopter Dock flight deck training at HMAS Albatross. Check this video out for more information about the training."

48Mb .MP4 video: http://cp114370.p1.videos.viostream.com/download/1563_169418_85385_mp4hd.mp4
_____________________

NUSHIP Canberra AVN Mission rehearsal Training
Date: 28.07.2014 Duration: 2:46 RAN

"NUSHIP Canberra's Air Department conducted mission rehearsal training on the multispot "dummy" deck which is used for Landing Helicopter Dock flight deck training at HMAS Albatross. Check this video out for more information about the training."

63Mb .MP4 video: http://cp114370.p1.videos.viostream.com/download/1563_168614_41228_mp4hd.mp4
__________________________________

NUSHIP Canberra Duty Watch Certification
Date: 09.10.2014 Duration: 2:58 RAN

"Members of NUSHIP Canberra’s first Duty Watch teams are preparing to take responsibility for the first Landing Helicopter Dock – the largest ship ever built for Navy. The Duty Watch teams will be responsible for the safety and security of the ship while in harbour. Find out what the teams are up to by watching this video."

67Mb .MP4 video: http://cp114370.p1.videos.viostream.com/download/1563_170631_47351_mp4hd.mp4
______________________________

NUSHIP Canberra sails into Sydney
Date: 11.04.2014 Duration: 2:00 RAN

"NUSHIP Canberra made history last month when she sailed into Sydney Harbour for the first time. The first of two Landing Helicopter Dock ships being built for the Navy, Canberra’s visit to Sydney was part of the contractor sea trials and testing program. This program proves systems and equipment prior to the ship being delivered to Defence. The ship conducted a planned commercial docking in Sydney for a hull clean and final paint. As Canberra docked down, her size and scale was readily apparent. The Sydney-based ship’s company took the opportunity to conduct important familiarisation and induction training while the ship was in her future homeport. The ship's four Duty Watch teams carried out security and damage control training in preparation for taking responsibility for the ship. Canberra has now departed Sydney to continue contractor sea trials. These trials will include a set of propulsion, speed and endurance trials on the way back to Melbourne. Canberra is returning to Williamstown to prepare for the final phase of Contractor sea trials involving communications and combat systems."

44Mb .MP4 video: http://cp114370.p1.videos.viostream.com/download/1563_165071_12899_mp4hd.mp4

Source: http://video.navy.gov.au/?mediaId=a1b7cc7b-fbdd-42e7-b0ec-9faee6ab8bf6

PHOTO: http://i842.photobucket.com/albums/zz349/ontheroger/nowra_dummydeck_1_zps9d46766c.jpg

user posted image

Posted by: Luig Nov 6 2014, 01:34 PM
We oughtta name this forum 'Kotter' so we can say 'Welcome back Kotter'. But anyway.... old news I guess that the F-35Cs X 2 have successfully arrested and catapulted on at least the last Mon/Tues this week and meanwhile....

A 2015 White Paper submission Oct 2014 PDF is here. Written by a gang led by Dave Baddams, ex-A4G & SHAR CO and Oz Hawk Production Test Pilot:

http://www.defence.gov.au/Whitepaper/docs/082-Baddams.pdf (126Kb)

I'll attach it. And it woiked! GOOD ONE! :-)

Posted by: Luig Nov 9 2014, 05:21 AM
Some stats on the carrier testing for the F-35C so far....

F-35C Initial At-Sea Testing Progressing Aboard USS Nimitz 08 Nov 2014 USN PR
QUOTE
"SAN DIEGO (NNS) -- The F-35C Lightning II, the carrier variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, continues initial sea trials aboard the aircraft carrier USS Nimitz (CVN 68) off the coast of Southern California.

Through Nov. 6, the fourth day of at-sea testing, two test F-35C aircraft have completed 12 flights. During those 12 flights, the aircraft flew a combined 12.7 flight hours and accomplished 203 test points.

The Navy's newest fixed-wing fighter performed 55 catapult launches, 84 planned touch-and-go landings and 57 arrested landings. Through four days of at-sea testing, the test team successfully landed during every attempt, with zero bolters, or failures to catch an arresting cable on the flight deck.

With the last of the four test pilots completing carrier qualifications Nov. 6, all aircrew members are now carrier-qualified and able to fly the aircraft in test events.

During the first stage of developmental testing, the test team conducts a series of events designed to gradually expand the aircraft-operating envelope at sea. Events scheduled for Nov. 7 center on crosswind catapult launches and crosswind approaches to test the aircraft's ability to perform in both nominal and off-nominal conditions.

At-sea test delivers the opportunity to conduct operations in preparation for Navy F-35C initial operational capability scheduled for 2018."

http://www.noodls.com/view/B897F88AD410EBE824A86D7EFF67A516C780BB35?6527xxx1415467656

Posted by: Luig Nov 9 2014, 12:35 PM
Dave Baddams gets a Guernsey on SLDinfo:

Australia and F-35Bs: Examining an Option for the Australian Defense Force 08 Nov 2014 SLDinfo
QUOTE
"...In an input to the Defence White Paper process, David Baddams has had his paper on F-35Bs published on the Australian Ministry of Defence website...."

http://www.sldinfo.com/australia-and-f-35bs-examining-an-option-for-the-australian-defense-force/

Posted by: Luig Nov 17 2014, 12:58 PM
No time to read this PDF yet but will do soon. Meanwhile....

Jump jets for the ADF?
17 Nov 2014 Richard Brabin-Smith, Benjamin Schreer | Australian Strategic Policy Institute
QUOTE
"This report argues that the costs of Australia acquiring F-35B Joint Strike Fighter short take-off, vertical landing aircraft outweigh the potential benefits.

Overview
Is there a case for Australia to acquire F-35B Joint Strike Fighter short take-off, vertical landing (STOVL) aircraft to operate from the two new Canberra-class landing helicopter docks (LHDs)? The government has directed that this question be addressed in the development of the 2015 Defence White Paper.

This report is an independent assessment of the costs and potential benefits of such an acquisition. Reintroducing organic naval air power into the ADF would be a big strategic decision, and very complex and expensive, so it’s important to have a clear view of the circumstances in which it might be beneficial enough to be worth pursuing. And it’s important to be aware not only of the direct costs but also of the potential risks and opportunity costs. Overall, this report concludes that the benefits would be marginal at best, wouldn’t be commensurate with the costs and other consequences for the ADF, and would potentially divert funding and attention from more valuable force."

http://apo.org.au/research/jump-jets-adf

https://www.aspi.org.au/publications/strategic-insights-78-jump-jets-for-the-adf/SI78_jump_jets.pdf (200Kb)

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Nov 17 2014, 09:56 PM
These ASPI clowns wouldn't know anything about the benefits of STOVL - what a load of rubbish - they clearly have no idea - foregone opportunity cost of operating Ospreys what tripe - these clowns probably don't even know the LHD has only one flight spot for Ospreys; Low intensity Pacific island ops - says it all about the knowledge of the authors

Posted by: Warhawk Nov 20 2014, 01:11 PM
Gotta say,..in respectable Adult-ship talk, we really can't afford or resource them.

Threat levels current with FTA's (free trade agreements) signed or to be signed( Japan, Sth Korea, China, and India next year) is low,.....it seems that the US of A is the only heart ache who doesn't want to "get on" (Aside from North Korea, ISIL and Russia)

Maybe the money would be better spent on a fourth AWD(or at least a warehouse full of SM6's and Land Attack Missiles for the 3) and three more KC-30's.

Always worried about the basic bomb Truck issue of using a $105 million dollar aircraft to take out a $50 Thousand 23mm truck mounted weapon or a $2 million Patrol Boat verses the magic BB SAM Shot.

Keep the Supers for that, and resource both them and the F-35A till 2035.

Mind you we did resource the RANFAA during Indo Konfronski from Mid 1965 ordering A4s and S2s,...but they didn't arrive until after the events some three years later!!! Some thinking needed on that one.

Then again,..was it the SAM Bloodhounds based in Darwin that scared them off?

As a tax payer,.....I worry at nights about directions we sometimes go to ensure a viable industry based economy,..but aside from the Bushmaster and Frigate upgrade,...we ain't doing us proud( ie:AWD/Subs) So why not base purchases on Service use first,..then the carrot of Industry involvement.

But,......both Italy, UK, Japan, and even Israel manufacture "major" components quite out of proportion to the number being bought compared to our buy of 72 F-35As and our involvement. So why so????? It just gived me a headache as there is no direct answer on the where and why so,......

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Gordy

Posted by: Luig Nov 20 2014, 02:17 PM
Yeah I guess revisionist history is easy. However the RAN was worried about Indonesian Badgers and Kennel missiles. Buying stuff during/after an event may indicate the worry of a repeat? And yet I like the way the RAAF rarely went anywhere with their fast jets over decades until only relatively recently (with Binny at the helm). Perhaps I'm being revisionist in a funny way?

Fleet Defence is important to the FLEET - if not to the RAAF. Plenty of accurate historical information in my PDFs here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791
OR
https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folders/0BwBlvCQ7o4F_aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

QUOTE
“In the summer of 1961, twenty TU-16KS [Badgers] were sold to Indonesia.”

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/russia/bomber/tu-16.htm

Posted by: Luig Nov 23 2014, 02:58 PM
This info e-mailed to me today which may prove interesting for some? A mixture of F-35 topics in this audio interview however the F-35B and CVF are mentioned most so it'll go here.

Sea Control 28 (East Atlantic) – The F-35 March 2014 By LT Matthew Hipple speaking to STEVE GEORGE
QUOTE
"For the inaugural edition of Sea Control’s “East Atlantic” series, Alexander Clarke brings on Steve George, former engineer with the F-35 program and Royal Navy veteran to discuss the challenges and misconceptions of the F-35 program."


AUDIO: http://cimsec.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/Sea-Control-28-East-Atlantic-F-35.mp3 (28Mb)

Source: http://blog.usni.org/2014/03/31/sea-control-28-east-atlantic-the-f-35

Posted by: Aardvark Nov 23 2014, 06:16 PM
Luig

Not exactly sure what you are trying to say here with your quote

"And yet I like the way the RAAF rarely went anywhere with their fast jets over decades until only relatively recently (with Binny at the helm)."

Could you elaborate please.

Posted by: Luig Nov 23 2014, 07:01 PM
Sure. You missed the last sentence which I had hoped explained it all:
QUOTE
"...Perhaps I'm being revisionist in a funny way?"

Posted by: Luig Nov 26 2014, 04:23 AM
Another weigh in on the Bs on LHDs from a knowledgeable source. It is good to see some claims other than 'it can't be done' for XYZ reasons. The White Paper may reveal more about the 'ease of fitting Bs on LHDs'. I can happily accept that any special RAN Fixed Wing is dead with some salt water DNA injection into the crabs via Willytown exchanges. :-) It is sad to know that STOVL experienced former A4G personnel are not employed to help out with the White Paper (I'm not one of those of course). Perhaps that can be remedied easily. Binny knows about A4Gs.

F-35 strike fighters for the Canberra-class? 24 Nov 2014 David Baddams
QUOTE
"...Minor refits indeed. The never-ending claim that the Canberras are not F-35 capable is the bloviating of spectacularly ill-informed mugwumps. The Canberras are delivered with the same hardened fast-jet deck and underpinnings as the Spanish navy’s lead ship, and all essential internal aviation spaces for fast jets have been retained. All of them. This was intentional and a specific factor in the acquisition process. The much-maligned aviation fuel bunkers and weapons stowage spaces have near-identical capacity to the enormous ones in the Spanish ship. Senior personnel have been poorly briefed if they state otherwise.

The fast jet and helo aviation capabilities of the French Mistral and Italian Cavour class were closely examined at the time, and the Spanish design came up trumps in all respects. Right now, the known requirements at refit for F-35Bs are a precision landing light called a HIHAT – it looks like a long green crucifix and is attached the middle mast – some sensor enhancements and Thermion coating on the flight deck. Some existing kit might need to be moved from A to B for electro-magnetic reasons. The glide slope kit, known as GLIS, is already fitted to the Canberras. This is the stuff of minor refit, and no more.

Refit and F-35Bs would deliver a motza more capability. More choices. There is no “niche capability” about six or eight embarked F-35Bs, where sensor fusion and data networking go merrily berserk when four are in the same airspace. That picture of threat and strike solution available to both pilots, controllers and commanders will offer startlingly long reach that any enemy is highly unlikely to penetrate without huge loss. He who sees first and shoots first wins. The days of close-up dogfighting or chasing missiles are long over, and a bad guy sneaking through a “niche” 4-ship of ADF F-35Bs protecting an LHD force would face being seen and shot at before he knew he or his ammunition was a target.

It is no good for pontificating PhDs of think-tankery to praise and extol emerging threats and the peril they pose to the LHDs and then dismiss the essential counterpunch as a tiny and extravagant toy. Further, their doctoral eminences need to learn that of 100 ADF F-35s only 60 or so will ever be in line service. The rest will be in attrition reserve, maintenance, repair or required for development work. The mooted 28 F-35Bs would easily provide three for attrition reserve, three in deep maintenance, one hangar queen, two flights of six or eight for the Canberras and a flight for conversion, training and reinforcement.

There is nothing “niche” in the relative or actual of these numbers. They are the sorts of numbers that current and probable F-35B operators use. So long as the powers-that-be are committed to supporting this through the F-35B’s life-of-type then the ADF can do this in a doddle...."

http://navalinstitute.com.au/f-35-strike-fighters-from-the-canberra-class/

212Kb PDF attached is perhaps readable on a tablet? I have no idea - no tablet.

Posted by: Luig Nov 28 2014, 07:36 AM
ONLY some woids from this excellent 6 page PDF article from Dec 2014 edition of Air International are excerpted below.

Cats, Traps & a Rooster Tail December 2014 Mark Ayton Air International
QUOTE
"[F-35C Aircraft] “...CF-03/‘SD73’ and CF-05/‘SD75’...

...DEVELOPMENTAL TESTER TEST DIRECTOR
Cdr Shawn Kern is the Director of Test and Evaluation for F-35 Naval Variants and the senior military member within the F-35 Integrated Test Force (ITF) based at Patuxent River. He leads a diverse team comprising 920 members from the US Government, the military and contractors responsible for developmental test of the F-35B and F-35C aircraft during the System Development and Demonstration phase. During DT I, Cdr Kern led the F-35 ITF, provided government oversight of carrier suitability testing and co-ordinated with the USS Nimitz’s captain, executive officers and other F-35 stakeholders.

He told AIR International: “Launch testing included minimum catapult end speed determination as well as performance and handling during high and low energy catapult launches and crosswind conditions at representative aircraft gross weights. Approach and recovery testing focused on aircraft performance and handling qualities during off-nominal recoveries in low, medium, high and crosswind wind conditions. Data and analysis from DT I will support the development of initial aircraft launch and recovery bulletins for F-35C carrier operations and Naval Air Training and Operating Procedures Standardisation (NATOPS) flight manual procedures. Test results from DT I will also influence follow-on developmental and operational testing required to achieve F-35C initial operational capability.”

Lt Cdr Ted Dyckman is a US Navy F-35 test pilot assigned to VX-23 based at Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Maryland: he made the second-ever arrested landing on a super carrier in aircraft CF-05 on November 3 and the first night-time landing on November 13 in CF-03. Speaking about the F-35C’s performance around the carrier, Lt Cdr Dyckman told AIR International: “Everything met expectations and there were no surprises. Going through the burble was a big unknown, but the airplane responded better than we thought it would.

“We saw that the aircraft could trap: the only true bolter was a power call by the Landing Signals Officer when the aircraft touched down long with the hook down but came around and made an arrested landing.

“When the weather started to deteriorate we had such confidence in how the aircraft was flying that we lowered the weather minimums to those used by the fleet. I knew that when I lowered the hook I was going to trap. That says a lot for the airplane.

“Because the autopilots and flying qualities are so good, the workload to fly the jet is reduced and we were confident enough to declare it ready for night-time traps. It flew very well behind the ship and I made two hook-down passes and two traps. It’s unheard of to conduct night ops on a type’s first period at sea.

“We accomplished everything we set out to do, which allows us to go to DT II and conduct maximum speed catapult shots and carry internal and external stores and asymmetric payloads.”...

...Flight testing was split into three phases: day carrier qualification (CQ) and flight deck crew familiarisation; the development of aircraft launch bulletins (ALB) and aircraft recovery bulletins (ARB). In addition DT I also included Logistical Test and Evaluation (LT&E). Subsets of each phase comprised:

Aircraft Launch Bulletins
• Military rated thrust catapult launches
• Minimum catapult launch end speeds
• Low, medium and high excess wind over deck (WOD) catapult launches
• Crosswind catapult launches
• Bow and waist catapult launches

Aircraft Recovery Bulletins
• Approach handling qualities (AHQ) of F-35C approach modes: delta flight path, approach power compensator (APC), and manual
• Low, medium and high excess WOD recoveries
• Crosswind recoveries

• Bolter performance Logistical Test and Evaluation
• Deck handling including taxiing, towing and tie-down
• Weapons loading
• Basic maintenance, including aircraft jacking and landing gear servicing
• Maintenance support

Preparations
Since the author’s previous visit to the F-35 ITF at Pax River in April the main test objectives completed over the summer were arrested landings, touch and goes (a training evolution also known as field carrier landing practice or FCLP) and a structural survey of CF-03. The latter was a methodical check of the aircraft to ensure it was structurally suitable to be flown aboard an aircraft carrier. The survey included testing engineering fixes made to the aircraft’s pitch pivot pin and nose wheel steering motor. Although precautionary, the survey was required because functionality problems had been discovered with each component during the F-35C’s developmental flight test programme. A subset of the structural testing performed on CF-03, known as a shake, was also completed on CF-05 to ensure it was also suitable for carrier trials. No issues were found.

One other pre-deployment test evolution was electromagnetic environmental effects (E3). This required CF-03 to spend two weeks in the shielded hangar at Pax River, to ensure that electromagnetic interference from the ship’s emitters did not affect any of the aircraft’s vital systems and cause them to shut down. The official E3 test report was completed on October 16 which cleared the aircraft to embark onboard the carrier.

All requisite carrier suitability testing was concluded on October 17 and the final FCLPs were completed at Pax River four days later.

One interruption to the test programme over the summer was caused by the temporary grounding order resulting from an engine fire on F-35A AF-27, serial number 10-5015, at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida on June 23. Each engine underwent a rigorous inspection process and because of the priority given to DT I, CF-03 was the first to be inspected, analysed and cleared back to flight: CF-05 followed....

...No modifications were required to the flight deck, not even the Jet Blast Deflectors (JBDs): hydraulic-controlled panels designed to divert hot aircraft exhaust during launches. The panels are raised in preparation for takeoff, protecting the flight deck and aircraft behind from the hot aircraft exhaust. Modification of the JBDs will be required for subsequent DT evolutions, when afterburner will be required to launch aircraft with heavier all-up weights than those used during DT I. Any changes implemented will alter the cooling path of the F-35’s exhaust plume, which interacts with the carrier’s decking differently from that of the twin-engined members of the Hornet family....

...Support Onboard and from Ashore
DT I was supported by a pre-production, nonfleet representative version of the Autonomic Logistics Information System known as ALIS 1.03. According to the F-35 Joint Program Office: “Standard ALIS functions were in place and used to support F-35C operations and maintenance onboard USS Nimitz. The functions were accessible via approved Department of Defense network and cyber security policies and authorisations similar to ALIS support for F-35B STOVL deployments to the USS Wasp (LHD 1)....

...Increased robustness in the aircraft’s control laws refers to:
• Pro-rotation during a catapult and bolter.
• Integrated Direct Lift Control which integrates the control surfaces such that wing camber is altered to increase or decrease lift, thus allowing glide slope changes to be made without a large change in engine thrust.
• Delta Flight Path, which is an innovative leap in aircraft flight controls, that commands the aircraft to capture and maintain a glide slope. The system greatly reduces the pilot’s workload, increases the safety margins during carrier approaches and reduces touchdown dispersion.

Wind Effects
Aircraft carriers are unique in that they have different wind effects that the pilot and the aircraft’s flight control laws must take into account. The overall wind effect is called the burble,...

...“We are evaluating how the control law handles through the burble. Data collected during DT I will now be used by the control law engineers for analysis and to improve our simulator modelling. Because the burble is such a dynamic and integrated wind system there are challenges to modelling it accurately. Future F-35 pilot training will benefit from this work,” said Cdr Wilson....

...We started making intentional errors in our approaches [off-nominal]. This allowed us to see how the aircraft’s flight control laws react to corrections input by the pilot and the effect of the burble while trying to make the corrections. “The pilot intentionally lines up [on approach] on either side of the landing area…starting either high or low, or flying fast or slow to see if there is enough time to input the correction and get back on centreline, on glide slope and on speed [flying a proper approach speed] prior to touch down. “As we fly off nominal approaches, if the LSO [landing signals officer] doesn’t see a timely correction or doesn’t feel that the pilot is going to land safely, he or she will wave them off.

“The LSO [who is located on a platform positioned 120ft (36.6m) from the end of the ship and 40ft (12.2m) from the centreline on the port side] is a pilot trained to observe the aircraft as it flies down the approach watching for deviation in pitch attitude using a camera that shows whether the aircraft is on or off centreline. Listening to the aircraft, the LSO is trained to recognise changes in rates of vertical and horizontal movement to ensure the aircraft is going to clear the ramp at the aft of the ship and recover safely aboard. The LSO plays a vital role in the safe recovery of aircraft aboard the ship.

“Getting aircraft back to the boat is our first concern: our second is [preventing] what we call a long bolter. This occurs if the pilot fails to correct a big deviation and lands well beyond the four-wire [the last arrestment cable along the deck]. For safety purposes any time an aircraft touches down on the deck, the pilot needs sufficient deck to derotate, and get the throttle back to mil[itary] power to fly away. There’s not enough time for the plane to de-rotate with a long bolter, which means it could still have downward direction so when [the aircraft] rolls off the front end of the boat it’s going to sink....

...evaluated approaches with crosswinds behind the ship out to 7kts....

...“We also evaluated approach handling qualities in low and high wind conditions: low is 10 to 20kt, nominal is 20 to 30kt and high is in excess of 30kt. The team’s goal for DT I was to gain as much data with cross winds and various head winds to allow us to start writing our aircraft launch and recovery bulletins.”

What Next?
Testing around the carrier gets more complicated with aircraft weight and asymmetry. On subsequent DT events the F-35 ITF will increase aircraft weight and asymmetry by loading stores on one side to create as much asymmetry as possible, which is the complicating factor. Cdr Wilson told AIR International that testing on subsequent DT events is going to look very similar but will evaluate heavier weights and asymmetric lateral weight differences.

OUTCOMES FROM DT I
• Flight test conducted in the operational environment.
• The F-35C demonstrated exceptional handling qualities throughout all launch and recovery conditions tested.
• All four test pilots rated the F-35C to be very easy to operate from the carrier. Arrested landings were consistent: the aircraft caught the optimal three-wire in the majority of the 102 traps. Pilot comments included: “I noticed the burble, but the aircraft just takes care of it”, “It makes flying the ball comfortable” and “This thing is a three-wire machine”....

...STATISTICS FROM DT I
Start date: November 3
Completion date: November 14
Flights: 33
Flight hours: 39.2
Catapult launches: 124
Touch-and-goes: 222
Arrested landings: 124
Bolters: 2 intentional with the hook down
Threshold test points completed: 100%”
pp 42-47 Air International December 2014

Posted by: Aardvark Dec 4 2014, 10:05 PM
RAAF personnel are already part of HMAS Canberra's crew.

http://airforcenews.realviewdigital.com/#folio=6

Posted by: Luig Dec 5 2014, 07:25 AM
Thanks. I absolutely detest these online ADF news websites - YMMV - I go look for the PDF editions which are so much more readable and of course usable for my purposes. So go here:
[or download the page attached here] YOU MUST RIGHT MOUSE CLICK on the PDF ATTACHMENT link below to 'SAVE AS' to your computer otherwise tears before tea time methinks?

http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafnews/editions/5623/5623.pdf (9Mb)

Posted by: Aardvark Dec 5 2014, 10:12 AM
Given that one of them is wearing a RAN camo suit these three may be the only people in the ADF entitled to issue of all three camo suits.

We may be moving to a Canadian type system without even realising it.

Posted by: Luig Dec 17 2014, 07:37 PM
Some ideas about how the USMC will go about their Bee Basing Business....

Marines Propose Rapidly Mobile F-35 Operations Marines push shell-game plan for JSF survival
16 Dec 2014 Bill Sweetman | Aviation Week & Space Technology
QUOTE
"Fast Movers
An ambitious plan to move short-takeoff, vertical-landing (STOVL) Lockheed Martin F-35B Joint Strike Fighter units rapidly between multiple temporary bases—to protect both the aircraft and U.S. Navy amphibious-warfare ships from theater-range guided ballistic and cruise missiles—is being explored by the U.S. Marine Corps and was the focus of an October wargame....

...The new Conops is known as distributed Stovl operations (DSO), according to Lt. Gen. Jon Davis, Marine deputy commandant for aviation. The objective is to sustain air operations from bases in allied territory that are within the range of hostile missiles. By using mobile forward arming and refueling points (M-Farps), the F-35Bs—which have the shortest range of any F-35 variant—can respond more quickly to operational needs, generate more sorties and reach deeper into enemy territory than they could if they were based outside missile range. The DSO plan envisages the use of Bell/Boeing MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft to provide air refueling support to the F-35B.

Mobility is the key to the DSO concept, according to Davis and the most recent Marine aviation plan, which was produced under his leadership. The M-Farps are intended to be moved around the theater inside the adversary’s targeting cycle—assumed to be 24-48 hr.—so that they can survive without active defense against missile attacks. Decoy M-Farps would be established to complicate the targeting problem.

The DSO concept is scalable, from units operating a handful of aircraft to multi-squadron forces, the Marine planning document says. The smaller units could be supported by helicopters, although Davis says that in most cases the M-Farp will be able to accommodate Lockheed Martin KC-130J tankers to deliver fuel, and could also be located in littoral areas and supplied by sea links from ships, via mobile distribution sites on land. The M-Farps could be based on small airfields, multi-lane roads or damaged main bases, the aviation plan suggests F-35Bs would return to U.S. Navy ships, rear-area U.S. Air Force bases or coalition carriers for scheduled maintenance.

Metal planking would be needed to protect unprepared roads from the F-35B’s exhaust, Davis says, and the Marines are studying lighter and more heat-resistant products. The planking would be moved between M-Farp sites by helicopter...."

http://aviationweek.com/defense/marines-propose-rapidly-mobile-f-35-operations

Posted by: Luig Feb 5 2015, 10:55 AM
This Magazine Cover was sent to me so I have not read the contents - looks interestin' - no?

THE NAVY Jan-Mar 2015 Vol. 77 No.1

Posted by: Luig Feb 25 2015, 12:57 PM
Lockheed F-35 heads for the ski jump in next key round of tests 24 Feb 2015 Andrea Shalal (Editing by Matthew Lewis)
QUOTE
“Feb 24 (Reuters) - Lockheed Martin Corp's F-35 Joint Strike Fighter will start "ski-jump testing" at a Maryland air base this week, while another B-model jet wraps up six months of tests at temperatures as low as minus 40 degrees Fahrenheit (minus 40 Celsius) to as high as 120 F (49 C).

Two UK pilots will test the ability of the new warplane to take off from upward-sloping ski-jump ramps used on aircraft carriers like those operated by Britain and Italy. The ramps launch the jets forward and upward, reducing the thrust need-ed. [Not true - the take off distance is reduced - as per F-35B KPPs]

Sylvia Pierson, spokeswoman for the Pentagon's F-35 pro-gram office, said two British pilots, one from BAE Systems Plc and the other from the British Royal Navy, would use the first UK F-35B jet to complete the testing through late May....”

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/24/lockheed-fighter-testing-idUSL1N0VX2AK20150224

Posted by: Luig Feb 25 2015, 05:55 PM
Avalon 2015: Bell touts AH-1Z as maritime attack platform for Australia
Gareth Jennings, Melbourne 24 Feb 2015
QUOTE
"Bell Helicopter is pitching its AH-1Z Viper helicopter to the Australian Defence Force (ADF) to be utilised as a maritime attack platform aboard its two landing helicopter dock (LHD) amphibious assault ships, a company representative told IHS Jane's at the Avalon Airshow yesterday (24 February).

Bob Carrese, regional vice-president for Asia-Pacific, said while there is no formal Australian requirement, Bell Helicopter is briefing the ADF on the Viper's capabilities ahead of an expected decision on whether to upgrade its Airbus Helicopters Tigers to a maritime configuration.

"The AH-1Z is already doing all of the missions that the ADF is doing [with the Tiger], and more."..."

http://www.janes.com/article/49417/avalon-2015-bell-touts-ah-1z-as-maritime-attack-platform-for-australia

Posted by: Luig Mar 14 2015, 11:49 AM
L 61 Juan Carlos I Apontaje de un harrier - Spanish aircraft carrier operations Published on Dec 24, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KIagzoiytI

Posted by: Luig Jun 23 2015, 08:47 PM
First F-35B ski-jump launch, June 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIO5K-fUMzQ

Posted by: Luig Jul 8 2015, 03:44 AM
PM's floating fighter jet plan quietly sunk by Defence 07 Jul 2015 John Kerin
QUOTE
"Prime Minister Tony Abbott's proposal to put F-35 fighter jets on the Navy's two 27,000-tonne troop transport assault ships has been quietly dropped ahead of the government's defence white paper after it was found the ships would require extensive reworking and the project was too costly.

Mr Abbott asked defence planners in May last year to examine the possibility of putting up to 12 of the short-take-off and vertical-landing F-35Bs on to the two ships – the largest in the Navy – which carry helicopters and are likely to be primarily used to transport troops and equipment to war or disaster zones....

...Defence sources have told The Australian Financial Review that the proposal was "still in the white paper mix" up until some weeks ago.

But one source close to the white paper was emphatic on Tuesday that "it will now not make the cut".

"There were just too many technical difficulties involved in modifying a ship which takes helicopters to take fighter jets and it is also very expensive," the source said. "You can safely say it has been dropped."

The white paper, which lays down the Abbott government's 20-year vision for defence – including a $275 billion-plus weapons wishlist – is expected to be released next month...."

http://www.afr.com/news/politics/pms-floating-fighter-jet-plan-quietly-sunk-by-defence-20150707-gi6qxj

Posted by: Luig Sep 28 2015, 02:48 AM
Salty Dogs & Funky Jets October 2015 Mark Ayton

"...Ski Jump Trials
Her Majesty’s Ship Queen Elizabeth (R 08) is fitted with a ski jump like no other: a new design tailored to be used by very expensive new aircraft. Launching a 60,000lb F-35B off a ski jump requires some serious maths, engineering and testing.

The F-35B ski jump test campaign should have started in March of this year, but was delayed due to brutal sub-zero temperatures and snow that blighted Patuxent River at the time. Aircraft BF-01 was originally assigned to conduct the ski jump events but was unable to remain at Pax while the weather improved. It was already scheduled to deploy to Edwards Air Force Base, California to conduct wet runway and crosswind testing.

The test programme comprises two phases, the first of which eventually began on June 19 when BAE Systems test pilot Peter Wilson conducted the first take-off using the ski jump at Pax with F-35B BF-04. Sqn Ldr Edgell told AIR International: “Phase 1 is a risk-reduction phase designed to highlight any significant hardware or software updates that may be required prior to commencing the bulk of testing. It comprises 29 ski-jump launches.

“Phase 1 will ensure our models and predictions are correct. If anything needs addressing we can do so in a timely fashion and then go into the 140-sortie Phase 2.”

The ski jump used on HMS Queen Elizabeth has a curved leading edge designed to simultaneously launch an F-35B upward and forward with a greater take-off weight and less end-speed than required for an unassisted horizontal launch aboard an LHD-class amphibious assault ship, such as USS Wasp (LHD 1).

The reader may be surprised to learn that the ski ramp built at Pax River is based on the type used on the Invincible-class aircraft carriers which is a little bit shorter (50ft) and slightly shallower (0.5º) than the ramp on Queen Elizabeth-class carriers. Sqn Ldr Edgell explained: “The Pax River ramp design process dates back to 2005 but, at the time, the Queen Elizabeth ramp profile was not known. Analysis conducted in 2005 showed we simply needed to use a ramp with a profile that allows us to stay just under the predicted F-35B ultimate loads and the Invincible-class ramp achieved this.”

Pax River’s ramp allows the test team to make adjustments for different profiles and encompass everything below the ultimate loads of the aircraft. “Though the verification of our models during phases 1 and 2 we can tweak the control laws to work off other types of ramp, none of which are the same,” said Sqn Ldr Edgell. When the aircraft comes off the end it is ballistic and accelerates to the fly away air speed, typically 10-20kts higher than launch speed, and therefore reduces ground roll.

“There’s a fine line between ensuring we have suitable gear loads and fly away speed,” explained Sqn Ldr Edgell.

“We want lots of margin on both of those. To achieve margin for gear loads we need to be slow, i.e. start right at the bottom of the ramp. To achieve margin on minimum fly away speed we need to start towards the back of the run-up. We blend the two aspects together and meet in the middle to gain the safest launch spot. For the very first sortie, our spotting distance will be conservative and will launch the jet off the end of the ramp straight into a previously flown flight condition.”

Such regimes have been flown several times during short take-offs at the field and STOVL departures.

Sqn Ldr Edgell explained an interesting fact about the take-off : “You can be lined up three, four, five hundred feet back from the start of the ramp and as you slam the throttle forwards, the jet doesn’t know it’s about to go up the ski jump. It waits for certain triggers to alert it to the fact it’s going off the ski jump, at which point its flight control system moves the horizontal tails and the nozzles into the optimum position. It needs to hit 45 knots going up the ramp.

“The throttle needs to be above 65% ETR, with 6 degrees of attitude and a pitch rate of 6 degrees per second. At that point it moves all of the effectors into the right place. Bear in mind the ski jump at Pax is only 150 feet long, so the aircraft hits all of those parameters with less than 100 feet remaining. By the time it goes off the edge of the ramp all the surfaces and the nozzles are at the optimum position, the aircraft rotates up to the optimum pitch attitude to fly away. It’s pretty clever stuff.”

Sqn Ldr Edgell described the launch process: “You slam the throttle and guard the stick. There is no input on the stick required. As the aircraft moves down the tramline of the deck you track the centre line with your feet, just like any other carrier deck take-off, but there’s no pitch input required. The jet flies away. It’s effortless.” In the event of any kind of malfunction, the pilot takes control and manually flies off the edge of the ramp, which is why he must guard the stick during the roll.

There is no significant part for the pilot to play in the take-off – the result of a design philosophy to minimise the pilot’s workload. A good example is tracking the centreline on a rolling pitching deck at night. That’s a challenge in a Harrier but in the F-35B it’s his only task so he should do a much better job. The administrative burden on the pilot has been significantly reduced: in this situation to an effortless level.

Phase 2 will introduce crosswinds, external stores, asymmetry, minimum performance (minimum deck) launches from the bottom of the ramp, and simulated performance degradation all to increase the aircraft’s flight envelope in Block 3F configuration. That’s imperative work for the UK which will undertake first-in-class flight trials on HMS Queen Elizabeth in the final quarter of 2018...."
Air International Magazine OCTOBER 2015 Vol.89 No.4

Posted by: Luig Dec 5 2015, 07:42 PM
HMAS Adelaide online 04 Dec 2015 Four page (two side be side) into a two page PDF made from URL attached.

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Dec2015/Fleet/2545/HMAS-Adelaide-enters-service.htm

EARLIER STORY HERE: http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Dec2015/Fleet/2541

Posted by: FlyCookie Feb 14 2016, 03:33 AM
Nice report from, Channel 7: the journo obviously did some homework before his sea ride. Good for him. Nice use of a camera-drone, too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFV3EfR4n2g



Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 3 2016, 11:33 AM
If below report is accurate Turkey will be first operator of F-35B/LHD Kebab Combo!

Why has that not made Western mainstream media yet? Perhaps because the President's speech was in Turkish? or it was an Abbott style Captain's call or it has been lost in translation...? Now will the ADF take the "No F-35B on LHD Horse Blinkers" off?

Construction of TCG Anadolu (Turkey's LHD) started on 30th April

https://turkishnavy.net/2016/05/02/the-construction-of-the-multipurpose-amphibious-assault-ship-tcg-anadolu-has-started/

user posted image

QUOTE
The Construction Of The Multipurpose Amphibious Assault Ship TCG Anadolu Has Started

The construction of the multipurpose amphibious assault ship L-408 TCG Anadolu has started on 30th April 2016.
The ship is based on Navatia’s Juan Carlos 1 design. TCG Anadolu will be similar to SPS Juan Carlos 1 in Spanish Navy and HMAS Adelaide and HMAS Canberra in Royal Australian Navy.

During the ceremony President of Turkish Republic Recep Tayyip Erdoğan made a speech.  During his speech he stated that TCG Anadolu will be the first ship in Turkish Navy from which F-35B SVTOL planes will operate. This is the first time official declaration of the long known desire of Turkey to operate fixed wing planes from her ships. This statement also made it clear that Turkey will procure F-35B planes along with her order of F-35A planes.

In his speech Mr. Erdoğan also asked the announced delivery time of 5,5 years to be shortened to 4 years and stated that if TCG Anadolu can be delivered in 4 years, more ships –though not clearly stating which class- will be ordered.
Unlike her nears sisters in Spanish and Australian navies the Turkish ship will only have diesel engines. There will be five MAN 16V32/40 engines each creating 7.680kW and propelling the ship up to 21 knots. The range is estimated to be 9.000 nautical miles.

The ship will have one Mk-49 launcher for Rolling Airframe Missile, 2 Mk-15 Phalanx Block 1B CIWS, 5 Stabilized Gun platforms probably armed with 25mm gun for self-defence.

The ship will carry 6 F-35B Lightning II planes 4 T-129 ATAK attack helicopters 8 cargo helicopters 2 S-70B Seahawk helicopters and 2 UAVs.

The contract for this project was signed on 7 May 2015 during the IDEF 2015. The delivery scheduled for 2021 but this may be shortened.

When completed she will be the largest warship of Turkish Navy. Being the capital ship she will be the apple of the Turkish Navy. At the same the she will be the most wanted target for other navies. It is about time that other ship building projects especially about ships that will escort and protect TCG Anadolu must start. As an example, the two other navies operating similar ships have initiated AEGIS based air defence destroyers -not to anyones surprise designed in Spain- to escort their amphibious assault ships.

Posted by: Demon50 May 3 2016, 12:17 PM
Interesting development Grumpy. I wonder if people are taking note in Canberra ?

I for one certainly hope that the Turkish plan to operate F35Bs from their LHDs is a success and shows a "can do" to other Navies.

Posted by: FlyCookie May 4 2016, 05:35 AM
QUOTE (Grumpy Cobra @ May 3 2016, 11:33 AM)
If below report is accurate Turkey will be first operator of F-35B/LHD Kebab Combo!

It is.

Confirmed in multiple mainstream Turkish media, and on the president's site.

Pic shows the man himself giving the speech, with suitably accoutred LHD model.

BTW Grumpy, kebabs in Turkey are surprisingly crap. Strange but true.......
unsure.gif

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 4 2016, 09:33 AM
Good picture that, Navantia must be licking their chops with a very successful design with one unit for the Armada and 3 exported (for a total of 4 so far)

Demon50 & Flycookie I can imagine the day when a Spannish, Turkish and Australian boat conduct a PASSEX in the Med, Navantia marketing Gold (I am sure our lot will have an excuse to attend some Jubilee or the like in those nether parts - if not I will settle for Juan Carlos Primero and Anadolu PASSEX for Silver)

The Turkish Navy already operate fixed wing maritime patrol aircraft so it would not be a unsurmountable stretch for their Navy to operate the Lightnings - especially as they are not politically correct like us!

Flycookie I do not know which unreputable establishment served you a crap Kebab, but I wish them a thousand Camel Flies!

PS me thinks the armament on Anadolu is superior to our 4 x 25mm TyHoons for starters

Posted by: Luig May 4 2016, 10:13 AM
Some NEW some OLD info on the Turk F-35Bs on Turk LHD:

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/2016/may-2016-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/3907-turkey-started-the-construction-of-its-future-lhd-tcg-anadolu.html

Earlier:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php/news/defence-news/year-2015-news/january-2015-navy-naval-forces-defense-industry-technology-maritime-security-global-news/2304-turkeys-future-lhd-could-be-modified-as-an-qaircraft-carrierq-to-deploy-f-35b-jets.html

Model Pic: http://www.navyrecognition.com/images/stories/news/2015/may/Turkish_Navy_LHD_aircraft_carrier_F-35_B_IDEF_2015_3.jpg

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 5 2016, 06:39 PM
That CIWS on the bow seems to be mounted on a specially built platform to provide extra elevation (the CIWS is effectively nearly as high as the island) and appears to have a firing arc on both sides of the ship as such, although they have traded flight deck space for it. I think the second CIWS is mounted on the aft of the island. But where have they mounted the RAM?

An interesting photo from Navy daily showing one of the RAAF Air Traffic controllers aboard L01 - RAAF type in NAVY fatigue uniform complete with RAAF flag and RAAF rank insignia!

user posted image

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 16 2016, 04:55 PM
Latest RAAF news says our CRABS to post on exchange to fly USMC F-35B's...

(No spelling mistake either) ph34r.gif

Posted by: Luig May 16 2016, 07:05 PM
That's a turnip (spelling mistake for 'turn up') for the books. Where do ya geddit?! RAAF News 19 May 2016

http://www.airforce.gov.au/News/Air-Force-Newspaper [PDF Page attached]

QUOTE
"...So we'll have Australians flying F-35Bs with the USMC in the near term"...." LTGEN Jon Davis USMC

Posted by: Martin Edwards May 17 2016, 11:44 AM
There is a long history of ADF pilots flying foreign types on exchange.
It doesn't necessarily mean Australia will acquire that type.

Posted by: Luig May 17 2016, 03:19 PM
Did anyone say otherwise? I know we have and have had RAAF pilots flying F-22s and we are not getting those OR any other types etc. What may be interesting in future is a RAAF pilot flying off a USMC LHA or even a CVF (USMC F-35Bs are guaranteed to use the CVFs in their early years of CVF service) with some potential to also work on one of our 'modified for the task' (THERMION) LHDs - however unlikely that may be. I would imagine the USMC/ADF would want to know if the LHD could be a 'spare deck' for an emergency. Now that is not difficult at all.

Posted by: Warhawk May 29 2016, 08:51 PM
Yes,..multi exchange postings and reciprocal Foreign postings do help the head shed planners and paper writers get a operational doctrine paper and knowledge at best on return, and a insight of the type's capabilities at the least.

Latest is the UAV Predator exchanges

This can only serve us well , perhaps as a guest speaker to ambush a Senate Committee with facts!

If there's a change of Government soon,..god help us

Posted by: Luig May 29 2016, 08:58 PM
A LOT off topic however perhaps our Navvy may invest in this tech for fifty year?

British companies have developed a new thermal metal coating for use on the flight deck of the UK Royal Navy's Queen Elizabeth Class (QEC) aircraft carriers 25 May 2016

http://www.naval-technology.com/news/newsbritish-companies-develop-new-thermal-metal-coating-for-queen-elizabeth-class-aircraft-carriers-4901601
&
VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3GVSir5OSI

"The coating will protect the carriers' flight deck from the heat generated by the thrusters of the new F-35B Lightning II fighter jets. Developed in partnership with Tyne and Wear-based Monitor Coatings, the protective coating is a combination of aluminium & titanium that can endure heat levels of up to 1,500°C (2,700°F).

The coating is expected to provide a long-term protection through the life of the aircraft carriers and is considered a key part in the preparation of the first carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trial next year, followed by flight trials in 2018.

Of the total 19,000m² flight deck area of QEC carriers, the coating is applied on the sections measuring 2,000m² by a specially developed robotic spray that fires powdered metal through a plasma jet at a temperature of approximately 10,000°C (18,000°F).

The molten drops quickly condense and flatten to create a 2mm-2.5mm thick, rough and tough coating with the steel structure. The thermal coating work is expected to be completed prior to the sea trials....

..."Working with experts in the UK, we have developed a unique coating to provide the necessary protection to the flight deck of the aircraft carriers and this will ensure they can deliver the UK's carrier strike capability for the next fifty years."...”

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Jun 14 2016, 11:03 PM
Looks like HMAS Canberra has had her first foreign visitor, (Note: Have not seen anything to suggest a KIWI NH-90 trapped aboard Canberra during Fiji Assist)

Te Kaha's Sea Sprite (one of the ex RAN air frames) cross decked to Canberra on 8th June 2016 while off Sydney

http://images.defence.gov.au/fotoweb/cache/5003/DefenceImagery/2016/S20161426/20160608ran8100087_027.t575f4cb6.m2048.xe89e20ba.jpg

Jolly Good

Edit: OK disregard FlyCook has already posted this in the Kiwi thread...

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Dec 28 2017, 06:46 PM
Crikey which planet is this journalist on, just saying like because Japan and or South Korea might modify their flat tops to operate F-35B that we will as well - practically zero chance we will !!!!!! tongue.gif Our Navy and Airforce has no appetite for fixed wing/LHD ops... full stop!

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/17199/japan-and-south-korea-eye-f-35b-for-their-helicopter-carriers

QUOTE
If Japan and/or South Korea move ahead with fielding the F-35B, Australia would likely follow suit as they have a pair of ships that are even better prepared to operate the stealthy strike-fighters—the Canberra class landing helicopter docks. These vessels are license-built iterations of Spain's proven Juan Carlos class design and were constructed with ski-jumps for operating STOVL jets even though the Royal Australian Navy said they had no intention of procuring them at the time.Now that Australia is set to receive a large fleet of F-35As (72 aircraft planned and that number could grow), introducing the F-35B to their already owned and operated carriers seems almost inevitable. Once again, the Harrier could also be an option here as well, but seeing as the country is a major F-35 customer already, and is set to remodel their entire air combat capability, going for the latest and greatest option seems more likely.

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Feb 9 2018, 06:34 PM
And another critic bags the F-35B/LHD combo...

Its as if the critics are afraid we might actually purchase the F-35B and then operate them off the LHDs - all the negative waves they keep generating...

QUOTE
Should Australia buy the F-35B for LHD
Published on January 4, 2018 Andrew Serchen

There has been a significant amount of recent media attention on the possibility of Japan acquiring the F-35B Short Take-Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) variant to operate from their helicopter carriers. As a result, I have seen renewed speculation as to whether Australia will also expand its current purchase order for F-35A (conventional) to include some of the F-35B models.

A few years back, I was fortunate enough to undertake the Royal Canadian Air Force's (RCAF) Aerospace Systems Course (ASC). As part of the course, I wrote a research paper on this exact topic and feel that it may be poignant to once again address the major points within that.

The first thing that needs to be understood with any government procurement decision is 'what is the requirement'. As my paper examined, the loss of the F-111 from the Australian Defence Force (ADF) inventory did reduce the effective reach of the Commonwealth of Australia (CoA). It could easily be argued that the loss of this reach has left a capability gap, which requires addressing. However, simply buying F-35B would not guarantee an extension of the CoA reach. In order to determine if any such advantage could be gained, sea-based operations of the F-35B from the ADF Landing Helicopter Dockship (LHD) would need to be quantified.

To state the obvious upfront, the F-35B is a member of a family of aircraft with a common design base. This means that there were compromises in its design that were necessary to achieve the STOVL functionality. Furthermore, these compromises negatively influence the specific capabilities that it can deliver when compared to the F‑35A. Additionally, the embarkation of the F‑35B in the LHDs would displace some of the helicopters and vehicles required for amphibious operations. These facets lead to the investigation of the specific capability deltas between the models, as well as a quantitative analysis of the displacement of the amphibious element's equipment.

When considering the F-35B in a direct comparison to F-35A in the CoA context, it became clear that the design compromises lead to an aircraft that is limited in all performance characteristics. Furthermore, the F-35B would be less able to evade threats and/or engage ground targets. When operating from Australia’s military airfields, the F‑35B is less capable of reaching areas of strategic importance and has less endurance overhead to those that it can reach. However, the F‑35B’s potential reach is orders of magnitude greater than the F‑35A when launched from a LHD.

My research determined that due to the decreased endurance of the F‑35B, and the limited stowage areas aboard the LHDs, a single LHD loaded with the maximum complement of F‑35Bs would be incapable of maintaining a 24‑hour Combat Air Patrol (CAP). Noting this limitation, the F‑35B is incapable of achieving the strategic requirements of the CoA. Noting that the CoA does not currently have any Carrier-based aircraft, it was impossible to use any Australian metrics for what would be a reasonably level of CAP coverage. As such, an assessment was made against the United States Navy (USN) Wasp class LHD employing their (at the time) current AV-8B Harrier Jump Jets. It was determined that a detachment of seven F‑35Bs could provide a Canberra class LHD with the equivalent level of coverage as the six AV‑8B Harriers embarked in a Wasp class. As an added benefit, the paper highlighted that the embarkation of F‑35Bs would reduce, or totally remove, the requirement for the CoA to deploy fighters from foreign nations’ sovereign territories and the conditions/costs of the associated bilateral agreements.

Noting the determination of the USN Wasp class Harrier comparison, this was used as a baseline to determine the affect on Amphibious Element equipment. The embarkation of the seven aircraft detachment of F‑35Bs would displace a combination of helicopters and light vehicles from the LHDs amphibious complement. This would limit the ability of the LHD to meet the strategic requirement of “maintaining an enduring joint amphibious presence in the South Pacific”. Furthermore, this strategic requirement negates some of the potential benefits of the embarked F‑35B, most notably the ability to deploy the F‑35B anywhere outside the South Pacific region.

Ultimately, I determined that given the F‑35B’s inability to meet all strategic requirements, it would not be a justifiable procurement option to replace the Super Hornet. Additionally, the embarked F‑35B would not add significant global reach over that offered by the F‑35A when considering the strategic requirement to maintain an amphibious presence in the South Pacific. These determinations in combination with the F‑35B’s associated costs (16% more per aircraft, 139% more per engine and an estimated $500M per LHD for design changes) necessitate the recommendation that the ADF not procure the F-35B.

Posted by: Invader26 Feb 12 2018, 06:57 PM
Well written - Not!

These pseudo academics only look at one aspect of things. For a start the Spanish Armada have successfully operated their AV-8's from their LHD like ship. Australia has two LHD's. Its conceivable that one could be configured for the F-35B like the Spanish and USMC [soon Japan] and the other as an assault helicopter carrier. As one who has served on Melbourne in her A-4/S-2/Sea King days the ship has a presence that our learned friend does not and will probably never understand.

Parking a jet equipped LHD off Timor could have been useful as a deterrent or CAS if it had been required.

There is more but sadly the naysayers hold the floor,,,,

Posted by: Luig Feb 12 2018, 07:17 PM
I'm not a joiner to 'linkedin' however Serchen BIO here: https://au.linkedin.com/in/andrew-serchen-099085147

As indicated at end of the article above: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/should-australia-buy-f-35b-lhd-andrew-serchen
QUOTE
"Naval Aero-Systems Specialist"

I've been told Andrew Serchen was a Senior Surface Warfare/Aero birdie type in the RAN.

Posted by: Invader26 Feb 12 2018, 08:03 PM
When I see stuff like the shipborne F-35B doesn't add anything to the longer ranging F-35A methinks he's spent too much time comparing apples with oranges [not lemons!]...

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Feb 15 2018, 08:06 AM
Serchen obviously thinks that the RAAF can provide 24 hour CAP with only 5 KC-30s at present a couple thousand miles off shore... lets see how long that lasts...

Have not read all his critique - but does he believe a maximum compliment on the LHD is only 8 F-35B's ?

Why does he not also consider MV-22 Osprey Tanker in the mix...?

The Brits operated both Hermes and Invincible during the Falklands adventure why does he not consider the 2 LHD mix...?

Would have thought the F-35B on LHD would be worth it for our fleet just for the stealth sensor suite alone to network with our DGG and Frigates in taking out threats over the horizon - distributed lethality... not to mention all the other benefits...

I don't see any consideration by Serchen of the F-35B being employed from land locations either and all the benefits The B brings to bombed out runways that a KC-30 and F-35A cannot...

Thank our stars Singapore and Japan don't have his centric limited mentality...

Posted by: Luig Feb 15 2018, 03:11 PM
"...Would have thought the F-35B on LHD would be worth it for our fleet just for the stealth sensor suite alone to network with our DGG and Frigates in taking out threats over the horizon - distributed lethality... not to mention all the other benefits..." YEP. All the talk about working together RAN/ARMY/RAAF seems to get lost in PELORUS/whatever/JERICHO plans. Seems the people at the top are as DOZY as they appear. :-) As I have mentioned (probably elsewhere a zillion tymes) let the RAAF operate F-35Bs ashore and when required (which may be NEVER) have some of them onboard an LHD and get them OFF ASAP so that they are again supported ASHORE. Ffsake. :-) But hey the RAAF has to develop usefulness WITH THE ARMY with F-35Bs ashore. GET TO IT - MAKE IT SO.

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 7 2018, 11:37 PM
Well the new F-35 weapons load trainer just delivered to Williamtown

QUOTE
represents the underside of an F-35 hybrid of all three models, split down the aircraft centreline. One side will be a weapons bay of the F-35A and C models which share a common weapons bay and forward fuselage, while the other side will be the smaller F-35B weapons bay and wider forward fuselage which houses that model’s lift-fan.

The trainer also features wing station hardpoints, with one side having the common wing and main undercarriage of the F-35A and B models, while the other side is an F-35C undercarriage and wing which is of greater span and has a wing-fold mechanism.


so there is hope yet we might acquire the F-35B (not that there is any choice in configuring the weapons trainer differently)... biggrin.gif

http://australianaviation.com.au/2018/05/raaf-f-35a-training-systems-delivered-to-williamtown/

Posted by: Luig May 8 2018, 02:59 AM
Bit of nostalgia for youse neuralgia:

Russian (okay Ukrainian actually) Plane uses ALL of Canberra Airport's Runway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZGXwbPfwQs

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra May 9 2018, 11:33 AM
Meanwhile HMAS Canberra hosted the French President in Sydney and demonstrated to him all the fabulous and very functional and very lethal mostly French designed rotary assets we have acquired (TIGER and MRH90) in a non flying capacity of course...

After which HMAS Canberra promptly shut down her VIP tour deck (AKA flight deck which is superfluous anyway) and (for all the cat lovers out there) has grown some monster size cat whiskers on her flight deck - rumour is she will be transmitting "ABC Radio Australia" non stop 24/7 to the South China Sea in which case the Chinese will abandon all their claims for territory in the absence of any real and credible RAN LHD Air Wing - no I am not kidding see following image:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/seawaves/41981433541/

BTW HMAS Adelaide just spent another 3 weeks in dry dock - she is back in the water now...or should I say back on the VIP Tour circuit and will be working up her red carpet skills for hosting more important VIP's during the RIMPAC bash!

I say Jolly Good Show WOT - Carry On!

Posted by: SpazSinbad May 4 2021, 01:14 AM
Two very good recent Oz accented videos explaining the F-35 with the first one of course relevant exactly to the thread title.

The F-35B Option: the Future of Australian Naval Aviation? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QIA4bn4Pvc

Hypohystericalhistory's guide to the F-35 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQgNwrtVoZ4

Posted by: SpazSinbad May 4 2021, 11:20 AM
Good points and 'money money money always funny in this part of the world' seems to be less of an issue. Having a third STOVL optimised LHD is a great idea with enough F-35Bs flown by whoever wants to do it could be a goer and a nice announcement for the 'PM announcer' with follow through in the never-never I suppose.

However the idea of "F-35Bs on LHDs" plays out the video makes a good point of 'we have not enough Oz public information' to make a decision which lack allows the naysayers freedom. Yes the YESsayers can have the same freedom to invent but we would rather NOT TELL LIES eh. <sigh>

The video about the F-35 makes it clear I hope how useful the F-35 is whatever variant is in use. Not much else to say until someone in the ADF wakes up. :-)

Posted by: Grumpy Cobra Jul 6 2024, 06:37 PM
Hats off to Italians they are operating both Harriers and F-35B at same time on Cavour on its current cruise which will take part in Ex Pitch Black shortly...

What a wasted opportunity with our 2 LHD's, Navantia LHD's are a very bad luck story for the F-35B with Turkey forbidden from acquiring the type to operate from their LHD, Spannish Armada not having funds to acquire the type and Australia with 2 x LHD, with our heads buried deep in the sand!

Wonder if RAN will consider going with Bayraktar TB.3 on our LHD's once/if proven on TCG Anadolu... but thats enough brain farts the sceptics will say as our LHD's will require a Gazillion dollar upgrade, will take away from the Army vehicle and deck spaces and cannot be done regardless...

tongue.gif tongue.gif

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