Oz F-35bs On Oz Lhds Potential

If anyone has questions about F-35Bs on CVFs here are some answers:

[CVF] Commons written answers 12th June 2014 Column 238W

http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/...5B#reply-403669

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 19 2014, 03:40 AM

Some old history about F-35B with mention of the VL auto and how much the LiftFan has compromised the F-35 family design...

Joint Strike Fighter PERSPECTIVES Code One Magazine July 1996 Vol. 11 No. 3
Mike Skaff, Pilot-Vehicle Interface [PVI]

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V...449318_7528.pdf (13.8Mb)
__________

Joint Strike Fighter PERSPECTIVES Code One Magazine July 1996 Vol. 11 No. 3
Paul Bevilaqua, Lift-Fan System Inventor

http://www.codeonemagazine.com/images/C1_V...449318_7528.pdf (13.8Mb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 18 2014, 02:05 AM

F-35B Engine Exhausts 16 Jun 2014 Defence in the Media (Source: UK Ministry of Defence)

Source: http://www.blogs.mod.uk/

Cartoon / News Source:
http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/article1422839.ece

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This may sound stupid but does anybody know what the minimum stopping distance that you can get out of a F-35A/B when doing a conventional landing? Our new LHDs flight deck is 230 metres so I was thinking would you be able to land a F-35B on our LHDs if we were to use a deployable drag chute like the Canadians have down for decades on their CF-18s for landing on short, icy runways.

I tried to look up the F-35 specifications but all 3 variants are listed as "unknown", also on the specs the F-35B has a Take Off Distance of 450ft with the ski-jump.

F-35 Specifications - GlobalSecurity.org

Thanks for the updates Luig!

Do some research I would suggest. I guess recommending you download and look at the 'How to Deck Land' PDFs would not be helpful to you? It is difficult to know where to begin. Firstly the F-35B can VL on an LHD and that is the end of that.

We've discussed this, of course it can Vertically Land and Take Off however it's going to melt the deck of all the ships it's going to land and take off from vertically unless the whole flight deck is coated in anti-heat resistant spray or at least a couple of painted landing spots.

You have not read a thing - or understood anything at all - it would seem. I'll just ignore your claims from now on.

This is worth a read if you're worried about melting stuff.

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co.uk/

Latest roumors from here in Blighty is that at least one F-35B will perform a flypast at the naming ceremony for the first CVF HMS Queen Elizabeth in Rosyth on 4th July. 3 F-35B's (1 RAF and 2 USMC) are due to arrive at RAF Fairford late this month for their European airshow debuts at RIAT and Farnborough.

Thanks 'Judwin' a good overview there. Online my PDFs have similar & more detailed material (especially about F-35B SRVLs and Ski Jumps) or part material, with URLs pointing to the missing material (in the PDF). Some good stuff there on the web page on the Harrier (which is not featured much in the online PDFs - why? - because they are on the way out).

This 25Mb PDF mentioned at end of the above article has an overview of the UK Harrier History as well as the history of the CONTROL LAWS developed with the VACC Harrier to power the F-35B so easily under the UNIFIED version (by John Farley - an expert in all things Harrier & a pilot / test pilot): [John Farley was one of the instructors who took two A4G pilots onboard HMAS Melbourne in 1977 in a two seat Harrier to demonstrate how 'easy' it all was.]

http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/rese...rrier-Story.pdf (25Mb)

Another GABRIELE URL to read:

Does it melt the decks or not...? 25 May 2012

http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.co...cks-or-not.html

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 20 2014, 08:13 AM

A splendid and highly informed return of fire to much of the rubbish masquerading as informed comment out there in interwebs world has just been posted on the ASPI site.

Excerpts follow.


++++++++++++++++++++++++


LHD and STOVL—An engineer’s view


20 Jun 2014
By Steve George


As a military aircraft engineer, I’ve been associated with STOVL aircraft operations for around 30 years, and have worked on the F-35 program. So I’ve followed the current discussions around potential use of F-35B from the Canberra-class LHDs with interest.

In my view, it’s remarkable how much the debate focuses on the problems that the aircraft would face in operating from those ships rather than the potential benefits to be gained. Assertions abound about the ‘limited’ nature of F-35B operations from an LHD, and the ‘severe challenges’ involved in generating a militarily ‘decisive impact’ from ‘small’ platforms. And yet for 30 years or more the UK and US (using AV-8Bs and Sea Harriers) have delivered significant operational effect from similar platforms. Clearly, STOVL at sea can work. So I’d like to offer a few observations that might assist and inform the debate.

For STOVL aircraft, the Canberra class isn’t a ‘small’ ship. They’re actually much larger than the RAN’s last carrier, HMAS Melbourne, and significantly bigger than the UK’s highly effective Invincible class. Their flight decks are nearly as big as Wasp class LHDs decks, for which the F-35B was designed. Indeed, the Canberra class actually have more suitable decks for F-35B operations; their ski jumps would deliver significantly improved launch payloads and safer launches. The point here is that STOVL is a truly disruptive technology. It allows LHD-sized vessels to deliver a level of maritime aviation capability previously limited to large conventional carriers.


Read the whole thing via the link, here - http://www.aspistrategist.org.au/lhd-and-s...engineers-view/

This post has been edited by FlyCookie on Jun 20 2014, 09:23 AM

Thanks 'FlyCookie' I'll check it out - meanwhile some good clips of arrests and VLs in this lot....

F-35 Family of Aircraft Published on Jun 19, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUZ6SMmTKns

And for the concrete heads out there here is some more news.... :D Copy/Paste the broken (by spaces) URL below....

High Performance Airfield Pavements (HPAP) Dec 2013 NAVFAC NavAir Facilities Command

https://www.navfac.navy.mil/content/dam/navfac/Specialty Centers/Engineering and Expeditionary Warfare Center/PDFs/ci_tech_data_sheets/TDS-NAVFAC-EXWC-CI-1402.pdf (83Kb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 20 2014, 12:14 PM

Fair go Luig I'm not spinning your wheels and wasting YOUR time here and I did go back to "OneDrive" and tried to search "'How to Deck Land' in one of the PDFs. I tried to skim and search through the 125 pages on just ONE PDF. So thanks for putting all those PDFs together.

You put a new PDF in every new post (which makes for current discussions) and I apologise if I haven't read every page yet. Some PDFs are 120+ pages long with very small print.

To prove I have been spending a lot of time reading your PDFs and one quotes a US Marine Corp General saying that a a F-35B won't be a true Fifth-generation jet fighter with stealth features until it has Block 3 software (I personally don't know what different software does to the computer in the jets). If I can find out the direct quote again I'll post it, I've got tabs and PDFs open everywhere.

Oh and off on a tangent here but in my opinion if the RAN buys and operates F-35Bs you'll see a rise in Navy recruitment like after the release of Top Gun.

Cheers! ;)

At last you give indication that you have gone to the websites. The best option is to DOWNLOAD the PDFs. Probably due to your specific interest perhaps in the F-35 variants then there are specific F-35 folders with specific F-35 PDFs.

Remember I cannot replicate how you use these sites. My experience is going to be different depending on how I log in or not OR, which web browser I use to do so, and of course with Windows or that other thing.

Again I'll repeat - look at the folders and look at the titles. Download the PDF and then you have it to 'word search' or even 'phrase search' with the latest edition of Adobe Reader suitable for your OS.

NOW that there is a recent 'flood' of F-35B specific info on LHDs and concrete and stuff - I should make new PDFs suitable to upload. However there is only so much I can do in any one day/week/month/year. What is there already is very informative. Sure there is a lot of reading but how else do you gain knowledge?

The opinion of one person is just that. Unless they are the only one to make a decision what they say/think/write is very much irrelevant if the bulk of the opinions etc of the people who are making decisions carries any weight. And of course this is the nub. There are any amount of naysayers out there with the program moving along despite all the 'negatives'. There are many 'positives' that are often dismissed by the naysayers. NOT MY PROBLEM.

IF the USMC have decided (and they can - it is their call) to go IOC with BLOCK 2B then so be it. The USAF go differently later and then the USN later still with the BLOCK 3F - again their responsibility. Do not worry - be happy.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 20 2014, 03:46 PM

These pages are the LHD & F-35B & Harrier excerpts from 22 June 2014 edition of ‘A Pictorial History of Royal Australian Navy Fleet Air Arm Skyhawk A-4G & all other FAA Aircraft...’; + ‘How to Deck Land VL & SRVL style’ with Harrier and F-35B examples.

FOLDER: '__LHD & F-35B Info VL + Harrier':

URL: https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=CBCD63D63407...40707E6!298

File Name: LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts.PDF (270Mb)

URL: http://1drv.ms/1ioph3s

RIGHT MOUSE CLICK ON THE ICON or whatever file name seen as above and download this file.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 23 2014, 03:46 PM

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Osprey MV-22 on Juan Carlos I LHD test 18 Jun 2014:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=e...%26channel%3Dsb

This short article just went up on the Flight Global site.

There's a long, detailed introduction and overview article on this subject by the same journalist in the forthcoming (July) issue of Australian Aviation magazine. That article will not be be available online - readers have to buy the magazine.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



Australia reveals interest in F-35B



By Andrew McLaughlin


Australian defence chiefs have told a hearing of the Senate’s Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation committee that Prime Minister Tony Abbott’s coalition government is considering whether to acquire a number of short take-off and vertical landing Lockheed Martin F-35Bs.

Canberra confirmed in April it will acquire 58 F-35A Lightning IIs for the Royal Australian Air Force under Project Air 6000 Phase 2A/2B, adding to the 14 already on order to replace the RAAF's Boeing F/A-18A/B "classic" Hornet fleet.

Australia has long-stated a requirement for 100 air combat aircraft. However, because it acquired 24 F/A-18F Super Hornets in 2009-2010 as a bridging capability between the retirement of the General Dynamics F-111C and the introduction of the F-35A, it has deferred a decision on Phase 2C of the project until the early- to mid-2020s.

The F-35B proposal is being pushed by Abbott’s office, and if acquired the aircraft would be fielded from the Royal Australian Navy’s two new LHD-class vessels – the first of which is to be commissioned as HMAS Canberra later this year.

“There has been a White Paper evolving for a while,” chief of the defence force Gen David Hurley said in response to opposition defence spokesman Senator Stephen Conroy. “The prime minister has a view about a capability that he thinks might be relevant to the ADF [Australian Defence Force]. He has asked us to look at that.
"We have a process in place at the moment that depending where we come out on that process, we would then go into all of those technical decisions about the nature of ship and force structure implications for the ADF.”

The two 27,000t LHDs currently under construction in Melbourne, Victoria are based on Spain’s King Juan Carlos 1 (L-61) vessel, built by Navantia. When ordered, the LHDs were intended for amphibious and regional humanitarian assistance missions. They have capacity for a battalion of troops, up to 100 vehicles, four large amphibious watercraft and a dozen or more helicopters to be embarked for such missions.

There has long been an intention to conduct operational ‘cross-decking’ operations with US Marine Corps and UK Royal Navy fixed and rotary-wing aircraft. However, in lieu of a planned Force Posture Review and new defence White Paper being finalised for release in early 2015, there are currently no guiding policy documents or stated strategic imperatives for Australia to pursue the option of acquiring F-35Bs and to operate these vessels as fixed wing aircraft carriers.

HMAS Canberra will be followed by HMAS Adelaide in 2016.

This post has been edited by FlyCookie on Jun 24 2014, 02:07 AM

Interesting and relevant article: LHD and STOVL—An engineer’s view.

As I have said before, the idea that the RAAF could supply any sort of effective air cover to support maritime operations from land based airfields using conventional aircraft is ludicrous. Time on task and turn around time is all important, you need your aircraft near the action to do this and putting them on ships is really the only effective solution.

This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Jun 25 2014, 10:37 AM

'Nick' "FlyCookie" pointed to that excellent Steve George post above on the 20th June. I'm awaiting more info in future about the specifics required for Oz Bs on LHDs - interesting times that the PM and DefMin get excited about this. :lol:

Similar 283Mb PDF about F-35Bs on LHDs and How to do it is now on SpazSinbad Page on GoogleDrive: (same as the one on OneDrive above)

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folder...SUZES0VEM2ZvOXM

Folder: RAN LHD + RNZAF A-4K PDFs + Videos

LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 25 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf (283Mb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 25 2014, 02:25 PM

Fair enough, Luig, I missed that one, d'oh!

Still, some food for thought for those that think naval aviation should be confined to rotary wing aircraft.

This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Jun 25 2014, 09:55 PM

I agree. No worries. Perhaps I have mentioned this however my idea is similar to how the early 8 A4Gs (four on VF-805) were the 'fleet defence' for the ASW carrier and escorts back in the early 1970s. With later more A4Gs the tasks could change depending on requirements. My idea for a few F-35Bs onboard our LHDs is 'as required' for fleet defence and when not required these Bs should disembark and get on with flying with the RAAF 'as required'. I would hope they have a role with the RAAF and then they can jump back onboard as required etc. This quote is instructive however from the past.... The PDF was referenced earlier near the top of the previous (first) page of this thread.

Hobbs was in the RN around my time in the RAN and I think we share similar views about the 'air force' - that is another story. I have been told that air force is more joint these days in Oz and I can believe that. However that was not my experience (nor Hobbs) back in the early 1970s anyway.

CARRIER-BORNE CLOSE AIR SUPPORT Historical and Contemporary perspectives
CMDR David Hobbs MBE, RN (Rtd) The NAVY Vol 72 No 4 Special Oct-Dec 2010

http://navyleague.org.au/wp-content/upload..._4-Oct-2010.pdf (3.2Mb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 26 2014, 01:15 AM

Interesting read Luig.

In the Nick Thorne Defence Master Plan™, the army would become an even more highly mobile force (like a Marine Corp), eg - no need for main battle tanks etc, and the FAA would assume all front line strike/fighter, ASW & AEW roles while the RAAF, if retained, would become a support force - transport etc. Instead of building large FIXED fighter air bases we should build several more (now what is the word I am looking for? Oh yes,...) aircraft carriers so that we can move the air assets to where they are required when they are required. Actually what we need is a Navy, a FAA and a Marine Corp. ;)

OK, not entirely serious, but I am afraid that the domination of defence thinking by ex RAAF fighter jocks has given us an unbalanced defence force that ignores the realities of Australia's place in the world both politically and geographically. We are a maritime nation, our defence force should reflect that. Much of our country is sparsely inhabited and we have no land borders. If we ever need to defend ourselves, or more likely one of our more remote territories, such as Christmas Island for example, we do not have the right equipment or force structure to do it.

We need to be able to move our forces to where they need to be. We don't have and could not possibly afford the heavy lift capability to move significant forces long distances, a job done easily by sea. Of course such heavy lift would be dependent on there being a convenient air base at the destination - can we ask all future enemies to only attack near an air base, pretty please. Ships like the LHDs for moving the ground forces in combination with similarly sized but dedicated fixed wing carrying ships would be a much better investment. In the meantime, let us not nobble our selves by excluding fixed wing assets on the LHDs.

This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Jun 26 2014, 09:17 AM

Well said Nick...I like :D

The July issue of Australian Aviation is now available.

The LHD/F35B article is well worth looking for, although the Sweetman/APA/Palmer/Davis crowd might not agree.



This post has been edited by FlyCookie on Jun 27 2014, 09:01 AM

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Thanks for cover. 'Davis'? Who is?

Is this available online somewhere or do I have to spend $12 at the newsagent? I wouldn't mind reading more about our new Growlers...

I would never buy an iPad nor use one - I wonder why there is no PDF edition available online for PC users? Whatever.

https://itunes.apple.com/wa/app/australian-...08686?ls=1&mt=8

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 27 2014, 03:00 PM

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Back in 2008 John Bird had a say to Parliament Feds: I agree with this part at least....

A SELF RELIANT DEFENCE FORCE 28 July 2008 John Bird Submitted to the Defence White Paper Team

http://www.defence.gov.au/Whitepaper/2009/...l/Bird_John.pdf (276Kb)

Back in the DIM past this signal was promulgated:

SUBJ: ESTABLISHMENT OF AN AVIATION SUPPORT CATEGORY

Royal Navy Aviation Aspects of the New Amphibious Ships
Commander David Hobbs, MBE, RN (Rtd) AUSTRALIAN MARITIME ISSUES 2009: SPC-A ANNUAL

http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files...nts/PIAMA32.pdf

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 27 2014, 07:45 PM

Yes it is available online, via the iTunes llnk posted above by Luig. It is not free: Australian Aviation is a business, not a charity.

Luig, Davis = Malcolm Davis wrote a pair of spectacularly stupid and zero-knowledge pieces for the ASPI site.



This post has been edited by FlyCookie on Jun 30 2014, 02:01 AM

BTW so far as I know an iPad or other Apple kit isn't necessary to buy stuff from iTunes.

Maybe someone else here can clarify on that point?

I am happy to buy the magazine / article online however it seems the PC is / was neglected. AFAIK the initial iTunes on Windows for PCs was iffy - yet by this time (after initial problems) it may work OK on Windows. I'll give it a try soonish. More preferable would be a way for Windows users to download a PDF?

Thanks for info on Davis I'll attempt to check it out without joining FaceBook.

Looking around for 'Davis' I found articles at ASPI. Meanwhile found this one which may interest....

The logic of interoperability Australia’s acquisition of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter
Adam Lockyer | Winter 2012-13 | International Journal

http://ussc.edu.au/ussc/assets/media/docs/...nal_Lockyer.pdf (100Kb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 28 2014, 04:52 AM

Apple - Aust Aviation - iTunes can kiss my whatname. I have spent more than an hour downloading the latest Windows 64 bit iCreepyTunes and spent some time getting 'signed in'. So they send me an e-mail to my address (which is correct) however it is completely blank. DUH. WTF?

I cannot use the store - I have no Apple ID nor will it allow me to create one. An hour of my time so far with no result. End of.

Because I'm an idiot I have spent another hour attempting to confirm (somehow) that I am who I am by responding to THREE more completely empty e-mails. Even the fourth one that was supposed to 'learn' me how to go about confirming with FAQs or whatever was also completely BLANK.

iWateringTunes is now Uninstalled. Thank you and goodnight.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 28 2014, 05:11 PM

Sounds like you are experiencing F-35 "system architecture" problems Lui :P

Jokes aside - I did not see that Aus Aviation Journalist pushing/considering the F-35B for Oz in any of his navy/airforce aviation articles prior to the recent hoopla - funny that ain't it all of a sudden he jumped on the band wagon... ^_^

This post has been edited by Grumpy Cobra on Jun 28 2014, 09:08 PM

Perhaps I'll never know but anyway I had a thought about the BLANK e-mails from the rotten APPLE iStunk asking for 'confirmation' of my ID. (BTW I know who I am.) That was this - THUNK DIFFERUNT: reply using the blank e-mail. WOILA! I see what is inside the otherwise BLANK e-mail with a long URL link that actually does confirm that I exist. I am so pleased. Now the worm ridden iSore will not open because it is closed temporarily. Probably for good in my case. I even downloaded some stinkin' app with an .IPA extension which is actually only good for an iPartWithMySenses iPad. For gorsake do something Aust. Avn. cause you ain't gonna be sellin' much to me.

So the question remains if we do end up getting F-35Bs for our LHDs is it the RAAF or the RAN FAA going to cover all the maintenance, avionics, electrical, ordnance etc? So when those F-35s are aboard the ships are they going to be operated by organic RAN personnel or would RAAF F-35B mechanics come aboard for the cruise?

It stands to reason that using RAAF rather than the RAN FAA ground crews to maintain the (possible) squadron because they have way more experience in fixed wing fighters, saving the government million of dollars in training. You would have to train RAN FAA personnel from scratch!

Off-Topic:
A Hairy Landing of a Harrier Jet When the Landing Gear Fails

This post has been edited by F/A-18 Super Bug on Jun 29 2014, 06:37 PM

Probably best to highlight from whence quotes come - rather than just mixing them up. However to answer the question it would appear that the venerable John Bird has the right idea:

Issue solved [as you yourself seem to suggest]. Probably some Navy Pilots will may fly on exchange with the RAAF or some arrangement or even exchange with RN/RAF or USMC perhaps. You seem to be obsessed with relatively minor details when the big picture 'F-35Bs on LHDs' has not been decided.

As mentioned the old rivalries are likely less severe these days as some people have informed me and my comment is 'I hope so'.

The ADF is used to being flexible I would hope. HOW in the past has the RAN managed to first of all start their own Fleet Air Arm (FAA) back in 1948? Why they dragooned a bunch of RAF and RAAF pilots mostly, with some RN types mixed in as well. You oughta read up on some history. The 4.4GB PDF would be a good start or the older prop aircraft PDFs at the usual sites would contain some hints. Probably if you join the military in some position you will become acquainted with how things work.

Your comments about what the ADF 'must' do are a little ignorant. People are 'trained from scratch' in ADF all the time - including you at some point. Not forgetting that helicopter maintenance (especially on small ships) is no laughing matter. But hey - you knew that - right? Anyway training already experienced helo maintainers in jet maintenance or just helping support them with the RAAF crews onboard will be a no brainer.

The VIDEO about the AV-8B No Nosewheel landing has been highlighted already here:

http://www.adf-messageboard.com.au/invboar...t=0&#entry15657

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 30 2014, 03:49 AM

You're being a bit hypocritical you seem to post a new article every day on even the slightest changes and updates on the F-35A/B and in most posts. I put "ground crews to maintain the (possible) squadrons". I know you personally would love to see the RAN return to a fixed wing FAA. I'm not sure what year you left the RAN and what was your MOS (I don't know the ADF equivalent)?

Are you retired because some of the PDF are huge: http://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files...nts/PIAMA32.pdf is over 300+ pages long!

I did finally fined this in your Goggle Drive SpazSinbad. Even with the fastest ADSL 2+ the 4.4GB file it is taking ages to download. I have now downloaded it and now it says: Format Error: Not a PDF or corrupted. :angry: :angry:

All I'm saying is that training from scratch costs a lot more money rather than using RAAF ground maintenance crews with YEARS of knowledge of fixed wing fighters. So why not deploy RAAF personnel aboard the LHDs for the possible acquisition of F-35Bs rather than train the RAN FAA?

Also where are the possible F-35Bs going to be based on land when not deployed... The RAN FAA based is at Nowra but do they have the ability capability to maintain a fighter squadron there as they have only been for rotary winged aircraft for decades now? The F-35Bs I'm ASSUMING would be located at RAAF Base Amberley.

I'm not here to say they MUST do anything rather just an opinion from layman taxpayer interested in the military. You obviously know a *beep*load more about the F-35 but not has much about the LHDs. For example when our Australian Army Aviation aircraft start landing like the Chinook, Blackhawks and Tiger ARH who is going to "look after them" on the LHDs?

Damn it I thought I'd be the first person to look cool and post it but was beaten to the punch ^_^

This post has been edited by F/A-18 Super Bug on Jun 30 2014, 01:01 PM

I cannot answer why you cannot view the PDF. However as I have said you must use the latest Adobe Reader for your Operating System. Is this the case?

Does the file size approximately match what you have downloaded?

The SpazSinbad page on Microsoft OneDrive is another source where the 4.4GB PDF is in 100Mb RAR/EXE sizes (.EXE is the first file to double click when all the parts (approx. 46- or 47-) are downloaded into the same directory to then reassemble the 4.4GB PDF. Depending on which one you download you will see me at the front or the back. Or somewhere in the middle.

If you just ask questions here you may receive reasonable answers. However making ignorant statements/ and or assumptions is not a good idea as I have mentioned. You are lucky I continue to answer your 'questions/statements'. Some may disagree on that score - one way or the other.

I'll repeat - for the moment do not trouble yourself with events that may not happen. You need to gain knowledge about more likely events - such as the F-35A for the RAAF and the LHDs and some history of the RAN FAA at least. All these topics are in the 4.4GB PDF or in smaller PDFs at the two websites.

You seem to prefer to ignore my suggestions however. I do not know what MOS means either nor do I care. Some 40 years ago now I last flew an A4G, earlier in mid 1972 I last catapulted from HMAS Melbourne in an A4G. [During my year on VF-805 I was catapulted almost 100 times with some at night. With over 100 deck landings and a devil dozen [13] deck landings at night - including a rampstrike on my second night deck landing touch and go - which did not count however.]

I learnt how to fly in the RAAF during all of 1968 after joining the Navy at beginning of 1966. I left the Navy in mid 1975. I have some 1,600 hours in mostly RAN aircraft, minus the 100 odd hours in a Winjeel with the RAAF at the beginning. I have too many hours in Vampires, Sea Venoms and Macchis, compared to my A4G/TA4G hours; but those were the times when arriving at NAS Nowra beginning of 1969 I had to wait one year for my OFS (Operational Flying School) in the A4G. I did not fly the Sea Venom from HMAS Melbourne however. The RAN Vampires were more or less the same as the RAAF Vampires I trained on, whilst the Macchi MB326Hs were the same exactly.

I have worked on the PDFs for about a decade now. They are comprehensive in many ways - with lots of things omitted probably - but that all depends on the reader. If you have no interest in Naval Aviation in general, or our old Fixed Wing Fleet Air Arm in particular - DO NOT BOTHER TO DOWNLOAD anything.

Yes I am only interested in ships when they can carry fixed wing aircraft. Until recently the LHDs were going to operate only helicopters. I have no interest in helicopters. Boom Boom hence no interest in LHDs until?

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 30 2014, 02:40 PM

Well, all training starts from scratch. There is nothing magic about fixed wing aircraft that only the RAAF understands. The Navy already conducts maintenance on its aircraft, having F-35Bs will just be another type. Deep maintenance would no doubt be conducted by an external company anyway (neither RAAF nor RAN) as has been the case for decades, so we are only talking about regular maintenance. Every aircraft has its idiosyncrasies the F-35B will be just the same.

Why would the aircraft be based at RAAF Amberley? If there were two or three squadrons of F-35Bs, given the lead time for any such purchase there is more than enough time to build facilities at Nowra if there are not existing ones that can be converted.

The experiment of having Air Force aircraft on Naval ships has been tried before. It was not a success and it was proven that the Navy needed control over its its own aircraft, maintenance and aircrews. Nothing has changed that would lead me to think that it would be any different now. The idea that the RAAF can do it all is wrong and frankly dangerous.

As an opinionated layman taxpayer interested in the military you come across as one who is grossly ignorant of just what is involved in military service and operations, especially naval ops. You have been pointed time and time again at places where you could potentially gain some knowledge but instead you keep coming on here and spruiking utter nonsense. You simply don't know enough about what you are talking for your opinions to be worth considering. I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day.


This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Jun 30 2014, 11:25 PM

Nick: "...I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day." It is because I'm an old fart these days.... B) And 'the kid' has to start somewhere.

IF and IF the F-35Bs are only on the LHD temporarily on an odd occasion (with copious short exercises of course to keep them in practice) then having the RAAF (with RAN exchange pilots) fly / maintain the F-35Bs - which will mainly be in RAAF service - but as 'BIRD' (or I say more specifically) says have them onboard on a needs basis then I do not see the issues as you see them perhaps.

The punch ups (yep almost had one in the Willytown Mess with a drunken yobbo Miracle pilot haranguing my goodself one time) of yesteryear I'm told have gone. Hooray for that. There was never any need for the RAAF to bully the very small RAN FAA Fixed Wing of that era. But whatever.

I see OUR BINNY has taken over the reins yesterday so here is to a bright future. :rolleyes:

This post has been edited by Luig on Jul 1 2014, 03:06 PM

First off Luig thank you very much for your service of our country and I do really mean it. To know your a former fighter pilot is even cooler (sorry if that's the fanboy coming out in me) and looking it up there were only 20 A4Gs built and you were lucky and skilled enough to fly one of them!!

So now I'm reading that 10 of those 20 aircraft were actually lost and two pilots died some I'm glad your still alive mate. So the A4G was introduced in 1967 but I'm reading on Wiki that the HMAS Melbourne didn't see action in Vietnam other than an escort ship for the troop transport HMAS Sydney. I'm sure you would have loved to have served over there. Another point I read is that the A4G that you flew in didn't have the ability to operate guided air-to-ground weapons like the US A4F.

Just so I'm positive these are the TWO drives that you will upload new PDFs and articles to?

Look in the 'Documents & Videos Various' folder on the 'SpazSinbad' OneDrive page here:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=CBCD63D63407...6340707E6%21116

and

Similarly on the SpazSinbad page on GoogleDrive in the ''folder will be an LHD pdf "LHD+F-35BinfoJan2013pp123.pdf" same as on OneDrive.

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folder...aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

MOS stands for Military Occupational Specialty code or basically what is your job description in whatever branch your in...you definitely explained that down to a tee :D

Because that's where they have the most facilities, eqipment and logistics, its houses all our Super Hornets, C-17 Globemasters, eventually our EA-18 Growlers and our Airbus A330 MRTT aerial refuelers and thus they can conduct training using different assets and aerial refueling.

What's your bonafides after about a dozen posts that makes you come here and tell other posters to not give me the time of day? Luig has previously told me to pull my head in before and search questions myself.

However my current question is when our Army helos (Blackhawks, Chinooks and Tiger ARH) are aboard the new LHDs who is going to be responsible for them?


Thank you guys!

This post has been edited by F/A-18 Super Bug on Jul 1 2014, 02:41 PM

On OneDrive and GoogleDrive my page is called 'SpazSinbad' or 'Spaz Sinbad'.

This is OneDrive: SpazSinbad Main Page then look at FOLDERS:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6

This is GoogleDrive: Spaz Sinbad [join before viewing] Main Page etc.

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folder...aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

ONE THING about PDFs: You have not said computer/OS/Adobe Reader version.

IF you have an old computer from say the WinXP days then you will not have the computer resources to view the 4.4GB PDF. IF you still have the PDF that will not open then burn that PDF to a DVD and take it to another computer to see what happens there. Always best to have the latest and greatest computer resources - particularly Windows - about Apple/MACs I have no idea.

And always best to view the PDF from hard drive rather than a DVD.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jul 1 2014, 03:09 PM

>>(F/A-18 Super Bug,Jul 1 2014, 02:40 PM)
>>>>Why would the aircraft be based at RAAF Amberley?
>>Because that's where they have the most facilities, eqipment and logistics, its houses all our Super Hornets, C-17 Globemasters, eventually our EA-18 Growlers and our Airbus A330 MRTT aerial refuelers and thus they can conduct training using different assets and aerial refueling.

Oh, I see, and those aircraft have exactly what in common with F-35Bs that makes Amberley so much more suitable than, say, Nowra?

>>
>>>>As an opinionated layman taxpayer interested in the military you come across as one who is grossly ignorant of just what is involved in military service and operations, especially naval ops. You have been pointed time and time again at places where you could potentially gain some knowledge but instead you keep coming on here and spruiking utter nonsense. You simply don't know enough about what you are talking for your opinions to be worth considering. I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day.

>>What's your bonafides after about a dozen posts that makes you come here and tell other posters to not give me the time of day? Luig has previously told me to pull my head in before and search questions myself.

The number of posts I may or may not have made on this site has absolutely no correlation with my bonafides (sic) as you put it. I might ask you exactly how much experience have you had in carrier fixed wing operations? I served on VS816 Squadron embarked in CVS-21 HMAS Melbourne, so I do at least have a little experience from which to speak. Additionally I have been a close observer of the whole area of Naval aviation for the thirty years since I left the Navy, and indeed since before that time. That is not a layman's experience, but that of someone who has had inside knowledge of the game and has kept up with developments, because it is an area of abiding interest for me.

Oh, and re-read my post, I never told anyone not to give you the time of day, I do not take kindly to being misquoted.

>> However my current question is when our Army helos (Blackhawks, Chinooks and Tiger ARH) are aboard the new LHDs who is going to be responsible for them?

The same people who will look after them regardless of whether the LHDs embark an air group of F-35Bs or not. The question is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

---

Edit: something weird happened with quoting in my post, edited for clarity


This post has been edited by Nick Thorne on Jul 2 2014, 08:51 AM

A PDF on OneDrive and almost the same one on GoogleDrive (just a few added pages in the same time frame) with this name:

https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=cbcd63d6340707e6&sa=822839791

Folder: __LHD & F-35B Info VL + Harrier
ONEDRIVE: 'LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 22 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf' (270Mbs)
____________________________

https://drive.google.com/?authuser=0#folder...aDhIQ0szeVJFY0U

FOLDER: RAN LHD + RNZAF A-4K PDFs + Videos
GoogleDrive: 'LHDs & F-35Bs + Harriers Info ONLY 25 June 2014 Excerpts.pdf' (270+Mbs)

IF either one of these PDFs is downloaded a lot of your questions will be answered. Guaranteed.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jul 2 2014, 08:07 AM

Firstly thank you Luig for setting up your two "Drives" and when I get time I will absolutely read them!

Again thank you for your service to this great nation!

It means that when training our potential F-35Bs pilots can work together with our Super Hornets and also work on using along Electronic Warfare aircraft as well as hitting the tanker instead of being based down in Nowra flying around by themselves. I haven't even started on the logistics of parts, ground crews and maintenance costs, leave Amberley as our fixed wing aircraft base and leave the rotary winged Navy FAA to Nowra just like where the new MH-60R Romeo Seahawk will be based. However if you think that the NAS Nowra should get them then OK.

Can I please ask an unrelated question? That is although we've used the CH-47 Chinook since back to Vietnam or whenever and that we are actually getting 7 new CH-47Fs however if you had your choice would you buy the Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion or the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey (for our LHDs) (artillery, vehicles lift and for troop insertion/extraction) as our heavy lift rotary aircraft?

You said I am astonished that Luig gives you the time of day. now you didn't tell him not to give me the time of day yet you did imply "why the *beep* are you wasting your time with this kid. Yes or No?

No need to pick fights here 'buggy'.

IF RAAF operate F-35Bs in the future then they are best based where training will occur. Depending on how many are bought then IF two squadrons then one may go on permanent deployment around Australia and on an LHD from time to time. Practising bare base deployments around the top end would be useful and of course a lot of time would be spent at bases where these F-35Bs could be maintained as required. The F-35Bs should fit in with whatever the RAAF have in store for the F-35As - just that from time to time they will go onboard an LHD as required. Training on an LHD is part of the deal as one might imagine.

IF only a small number of F-35Bs bought then that is NOT such a big deal as both As and Bs fly the same in conventional mode with the exact same equipment. The only difference in the cockpit is that the 'emergency' hook handle/button for the A is replaced by the 'RED Button' for STOVL MODE.

By all accounts so far the B is very easy to fly in STOVL mode and has been made so over many years of developing the STOVL control laws / incepts via the VACC Harrier beforehand. Use of simulators will enable easy transition for A pilots to B aircraft as required. Of course they will have to practice their new B skills in the aircraft however it is said that 50% of F-35 training time will be in the FULL MISSION SIMULATOR - FMS - which again by all accounts is very realistic and far better than any recent other simulator.

There is also a portable simulator (for those northern bases - which more or less replicates the FMS with fewer screens) while pilots can access a desktop simulator also which are as realistic as the FMS. It is all go for sims these days.

In actual practice the Bs will fit in with the As seamlessly - yes there are airframe differences - plus STOVL mode for pilots - but that is all.

This post has been edited by Luig on Jul 4 2014, 06:48 AM

This is how easy it is to VL the F-35B (USS Wasp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mewdfv0rOM

This post has been edited by Luig on Jul 4 2014, 08:33 AM

Roger that Luig and I like the nickname too, I might use it from now on :D

I will definitely this weekend go through all your "Drives" and read all the PDFs.

So you're saying that IF we get a squadron of F-35Bs they will be operated by the RAAF not the RAN FAA?

So the home base of the two LHDs will be Fleet Base East so where best to base potential F-35Bs in your opinion? So being the armchair general that I am I thought maybe we should have one at Fleet Base East and the other one at Fleet Base West. Fleet Base West receives a lot of port calls from the US Navy from their subs to their Nimitz class aircraft carriers with their escort warships so maybe they could do some joint training exercises and cross decking while they are in the region?

Unless New Zealand invades us like you said these LHDs will be spending a lot of time in the Top End working with the US Marines already up there training with our RAR Battalions especially 2RAR (our new Marines :D ) I'm sure you've been to RAAF base Tindal (I don't know how big it is?) in your time in the ADF and it operates F/A-18s with No. 75 Squadron. So is it OK to ASSUME that at least a squadron from 12-24 F-35As would be based there out of the planned 72 with an option for another 28?

Thanks mate! :lol:

Hi Bug
As a veteran of 75Sqn Tindal, yes the base is big enough. The Sqn will acquire F-35A's and answering Luig, there will most probably be a full sim.
IF any "B" models are acquired they should go to Williamtown, this will be the main hub for the -35's.
As an ex-raaffie I was peed-off when they got rid of the carriers and the fixed wing FAA.
My 2 cents worth anyway