Bye Bye Arh Tigers It Seems, Mid 2020's OSD

2016 White Paper,...

"The Government will replace the 22 Tiger Armed Reconnaissance helicopters with a new armed reconnaissance capability from the mid-2020s.

Not even up to full "happy" operation still,......since entering service 2005,..11 years on.

So money will be saved on the Mid Life update it seems will be better invested in a new Chopper, rather then flog this "old Waler" ala show pony

NB: Even if we had gone AH-64D, this model will be replaced and left unsupported from 2018 by the US Army and replaced by the newer AH-64E Guardian. So its academic if it was chosen years ago, but I say this,..it would have earned its spurs in the Ghan from 2010 had it been accepted

<_<

Two years ago at a seminar an ARH pilot told me that the preferred plan for the Tiger MLU was fleet replacement with AH-64Es. From appearances this is the likely outcome after all. I certainly did not believe it at the time.

Yeah,..but don't be spooked if they decide to follow the US Army per the latest news that they're "in planning" to start OH57D replacement program that they really want instead of a heavy AH-64E now being fielded in that role up to 2018. Years ago the nimble Stealth Comanche was the Program of choice to replace it. That was killed off.

As we all know, the OH-57D was retired recently and all Cavalry Units (Distinct to AH-64D/E equipped Attack Battalions) have started or have finished transiting to AH-64D/E in Regular Army Aviation Units. The Army National Guard Aviation Units, seemed to have lost most of their AH-64Ds and OH57Ds now,..and equipping with Lakotas.

Bottom line,....they're all rebuilt (US Army Parlance for it is "Recapitalised") or purchased new, the AH-64E is like using the mid life crisis BF Ford GT to collect the groceries from the corner shop, five minutes away in a 50KM Zone.

Guess that's the reason we went for the ARH Tigar, rather then the original Fulda Gap Plugger, AH-64A/D when the Rusky Tanks come a flooding over from East Germany in the 80's.

Gordy,..pondering as ever

True, but don't forget the armed recce role has always been a fig leaf for Army to acquire its own close air support capability, which is much better embodied in the Apache than any OH-58 replacement program.

This post has been edited by Biggles81 on Mar 24 2016, 07:45 PM

Will they - Won't they? Upgrade - hold that Tiger...

Early work under way on Tiger Mk III attack helicopter 06 Jan 2017 Dominic Perry

"Defence procurement body OCCAR is in the early stages of defining the Mk III mid-life upgrade for the Airbus Helicopters Tiger, but admits uncertainty over Australia’s participation.

Although OCCAR is a European body and Canberra is not even an associate member, as one of four customers for the Tiger, it was assumed it would join the Mk III effort.

But Australia has been highly critical of its 22-strong Tiger fleet and in a recent defence white paper suggested they could be phased out in the mid-2020s.

And, says Cyril Goutard, Tiger programme manager at OCCAR, work on the Mk III definition phase is being driven by the attack helicopter’s other three customers: France, Germany and Spain.

“We are discussing with Australia whether they will be part of that process,” he says.

Goutard says the work is currently in the “preparation phase” and is not yet an official programme. “Nations are starting to harmonise their requirements,” he says.

Development activities are due to start “before 2020”, with a decision on the firm configuration likely in 2018 or 2019 ahead of production in the mid-2020s.

Key upgrades will be to the helicopter’s avionics and weapons, notably replacement of the various anti-tank missiles, including the Lockheed Martin AGM-114 Hellfire and Rafael Spike, used by the Tiger’s European operators; it had been thought that a common missile standard was being sought.

“We need to change the missile, that is certain, but whether it is common or not, the nations will decide,” says Goutard...."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/...elicopt-432948/

Canberra sees the eye of the Tiger 27 Feb 2017 LSIS Helen Frank

http://news.navy.gov.au/en/Jan2017/Fleet/3...f-the-Tiger.htm

JPG: "Leading Seaman Aviation Support Gabriella Hayllar directs a Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter onto the deck of HMAS Canberra to conduct First of Class Flight Trials." http://news.navy.gov.au/images/cache/746x4...e-000010060.jpg

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On reading some stories lately,.....
I'd be interested if the Availability Rate has improved since that Audit for Australia.
Details ex France ,...... that the ALAT Tigres are down to 35% Availability,..despite they're just a FedEx Trip road trip away from the factory!!

Germany is returning some 13 Airframes ( No Cannons) back to the Manufacture, and France is stabilizing around 67 Airframes, therefore returning also a number perhaps. Spain is happy,...and then there is us.

Based on this alone,...there doesn't seem to be much heart in the program. France has only between 4-6 deployed at any one time abroad,.....so that's only 11 or 13.5% of the fleet. Dismal.

Economy of scale for a period when the Soviet Block was next door poised with 20000 Tanks was never reached.

Dare say,.......on consideration,.....that the supply of parts would impede on Operational Requirements if ever, god forbid,. we had to use them intensively.

Amazing

Gordy

Availability of the LHD's might also be an issue...

I recall HMAS Kanimbla had a fire and lost power drifting close to North Head as she was sailing out of Sydney to conduct first of class Tiger flight trials back in 2010 which were then cancelled - fast forward 7 years later and HMAS Canberra has limped home from Queensland one week into a 6 week cruise during which they were conducting first of class flight trials with the Tiger, MH-60R and MRH-90! (2 Tigers, 1 MH-60R and 2 MRH-90 being embarked at the time).

I have read much on why we selected MRH-90 and Tiger helicopters and my conclusion is that it was a politically influenced choice intended to create the most jobs at the time.

Tiger helicopters seem to be very unlucky for Navy ships, or Navy ships seem to be very unlucky for Tiger helicopters...

LHD Canberra, Tiger helo trials 21 Mar 2017

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR2datwDC9k

https://www.slideshare.net/robbinlaird/the-...ed-force-design

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From the HATS pdf article in other thread.

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Same source

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After a main rotor loss in flight in Africa and deadly crash for the crew, of a deployed German Army Tigre,.....they're all grounded world wide.......Airbus say's they don't know why yet. Ours are also as everyone else's.

HOLD THAT TIGER, HOLD THAT TIGER... (some will recognize that song). Meanwhile the SHOL for LHD Tiger Ops seems to have been worked out:

Australia progresses qualification of Tiger helicopters on Canberra class
Ridzwan Rahmat, Singapore - Jane's Navy International 24 October 2018

https://www.janes.com/article/84001/austral...-canberra-class

Key Points
- Australia has completed further trials of the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter on board its first Canberra-class vessel
- Aircraft will provide the amphibious assault ship with forward scouting, strike capabilities

The Royal Australian Navy (RAN) has inched closer towards fully qualifying the Tiger Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) on board its Canberra-class amphibious assault ships.

The service's aircraft maintenance and flight trials unit (AMAFTU) has been conducting follow-on first-of-class flight trials (FOCFT) with the type from on board HMAS Canberra (L 02) since early September 2018, with the aim of establishing the helicopter as an embarked capability.

The RAN conducted initial trials of the Tiger ARH helicopters in February 2017. Among processes that will be carried out during the latest FOCFT include the establishment of ship-helicopter operating limits (SHOLS) under various environmental conditions, assessment of aviation facilities, and equipment calibration.

To achieve the environmental conditions required to define the operating limits, the FOCFT has been conducted at various locations around the country, including Darwin Harbour, the Arafura Sea, and the Pacific Ocean route between Australia and New Caledonia.

"The geographical variety permitted operations in high temperatures, calm seas, and light winds, along with higher winds and sea states to induce increased pitch and roll," said the service via its official publication, Navy Daily . "This culminated in the validation of proposed wind envelopes in conditions up to Sea State 5 at the end of the trial," it added.

Among Australian Defence Force (ADF) aircraft that can be operated from the amphibious ship include the S-70B-2 Seahawk and S-70 Black Hawk helicopters. In mid-2016, the RAN also conducted deck landings of the US Marine Corps' (USMC's) Sikorsky CH-53E Super Stallion and MV-22 Osprey aircraft on board Canberra as part of the Rim of the Pacific ('RIMPAC') 2016 international naval exercise in waters of Hawaii."

https://www.janes.com/images/assets/001/840...724449_main.jpg

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That should add some additional fire power to the ships.

The Old Esso Song eh!!! :lol:

Wonder where we are this week...apparently initial discussion per Tigre Mk 3 happening.

APACHE KemmoSabbe. Does the Apatchie have an over water/deck landing kit?

Future ready - strengthening Army's armed reconnaissance capability 15 January 2021

"The Australian Army’s armed reconnaissance capability will be strengthened following the selection of Boeing Apache Guardian to replace Army’s Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter (ARH) from 2025...."

https://www.minister.defence.gov.au/ministe...ance-capability
&
https://www.boeing.com.au/products-services...ity/apache.page?

For those that worry about shipborne ops for the new AH-64E helos there is this and the UK Army has flown combat operations from RN decks. What's the fuss?




AH-64E landing qualifications on USS Peleliu c US Navy

The US Army is to start receiving the Version 6 hardware and software update for the Boeing AH-64E Apache attack helicopter in August.

US Army to receive AH-64E Version 6 upgrade, with ship and UAV hunting capabilities, in August
By Garrett Reim14 May 2020[/B][B]

This post has been edited by Invader26 on Feb 6 2021, 11:32 PM

What's the fuss? The questions asked. Have they been answered? I dunno. Just because someone else does it does not mean we have to do it. I have read about Brit concerns for their 'patchies AT SEA. Should we be also concerned? Nah. Am I rite or am I rong. <sarcasm on> She'll be right mate. NO worries. <sarcasm off> OH YEAH.

This post has been edited by SpazSinbad on Feb 7 2021, 05:03 AM

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/37852...rike-capability


Enough said about Apache at sea...

The AH-64 has a door jettison system, and has a T‐bar which requires two actions: the first to arm the device and the second to jettison.

In the AH-64, the lever is situated in the same place for gunner and pilot, it can be rotated in either direction for arming, but pushes in for firing.