2a17 Tiger Moths, How many Tigers went to the USAFIA

[Warhawk]

Well that was a loaded Topic. "How many did the USAFIA (United States Army in Australia)get? "

Recently I emailed to Questions regarding the exact number of DH-82As that were reversed lend leased in reverse to the USAAF in Australia.

Its started out as "Its not often that I ask a question, but there comes that time for our DH-82A experts to come in. (And no..I am not Face Booking this question…spare me the &^&$%^%## strain)"
Fat lot of good there from the mob, except dear old JB came to the rescue.

Quoted Airframe #s MC-902 to MC907 and MC-954 to MC-965 plus quite a few transferred A17 serial Aircraft (IE A17-494/495/547/580/581/583/609 as referenced by JB vis Forsyth Page 243)
That makes 19 DHA Direct supplied DH-82As and 7 RAAF supplied aircraft,.making 26 aircraft all up.

Official USAAF Records of 1944 state only 14 were supplied with 11 lost by August 1944, one transferred to another Command(RAAF with 36Sqn RAAF) with just two on hand in 5th AAF.

That "officially" would equate to the 12 (MC-954 to 965) and 2 RAAF Transfers (A17-494/A17-495)


Of note, it confirms that 6 Wirraways were supplied with 3 lost in accidents, one allotted to another command, with two remaining in service. That's reflected as correct per numbers. IE: That one "returned" Wirraway was A20-500 which was returned in Sept 1942.

Back to the Tigers.

These aircraft, aside those assigned to 22nd Transport Cargo Squadron then based at Laverton, were assigned from units ranging from Air Depots and/or as communication/ASR aircraft, for the three Fighter Groups at the time, 8th/35th/49th. (We know A17-494 and A17-495 went to the 49th FG in NT)

Research shows examples of all Tigers post MC-954 noted at some time in the Australian area. What's not shown is any reference of MC-902 to MC906 (907 showed up in 1945 when returned to RAAF as A17-760)

But in the records available....all known (MC-954 onwards and A17-4**/5**s) are recorded going through 2AD or through 1AOS. There are no 2AD records of MC-902-MC907. Strange indeed.

What is missing is source documentation per delivery ex DH Australia and any 2AD Records(If they indeed came through there, mirroring all "flown" DH-82As ex Bankstown from 1942. These flown aircraft recorded included MC-954 to MC-965 and the RAAF Serial A17s issued.

My hinted quest is that MC-902 to MC907 were not flyable, but rather crated for delivery to USAAF Units that were not part of USAFIA. Those "Fighter Units stationed on the Pacific Ferry Route chain of islands......Fiji/Noumea/etc and maybe even Christmas Island

How can I say that? We have enclosed a picture of a USAAF DH-82A taken in Fiji pre mid 1943, perhaps with the 70th Fighter Squadron as a communications aircraft/squadron hack when based there Feb -Dec 1942. It looks fresh and more than likely mid to late 1942.

These Units would come under the 7th AAF post September 1942.

In any event,..perhaps at least one of those missing MC-90*'s is accounted for for starters in this pic.

Any assistance per "original period source documents" is encouraged. Any reference per Books "cause its says so" "totally discouraged" :)

Gordy

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[batman]

Gordy

This is completely apropro nothing, they also were loaned Oxfords.
In my bit in the Newsletter about 12 months ago I had the following (but no-one would have read it):

In AUG 1942, the RAAF transferred six Oxfords to the USAAF in Australia for communications duties. These aircraft were X6690, X6729, BF976 and BF987, and retained these serials. RAAFHQ Signal Q.7216 of 1 AUG 1942 assigned these aircraft to the USAAF. The E/E.88 Cards are detailed as: “1-8-42 For issue to USAAS” – this is an “allotment” so the aircraft may have been handed over at any time during AUG 1942, and were all probably issued to the 5th Air Force in Townsville. Five were returned to the RAAF in mid-1943.

X6690 for issue to USAAF 1 AUG 1942, E/E.88 marked “Assigned to USAAF”, no further details, evidently not returned.

X6729 for issue to USAAF 1 AUG 1942, received back by 4CF on 14 APR 1943, and transferred to 1SFTS on 17 MAY 43.

AP433 for issue to USAAF 1AUG 1942, returned to 12 RSU at Macrossan 16 JUN 1943, to 13ARD, 1SFTS 26 FEB 1944.

BF976 for issue to USAAF on 1AUG 1942, where it was operated as VH-COA, to 5CF Townsville on 13 JUL 1943 until OCT 1943 as KF-W, to 13ARD at Breddan (north of Charters Towers) for servicing, and storage at Point Cook SEP 1945.

BF987 for issue to USAAF 1 AUG 1942, received back by RAAF at 2AAU Kingaroy 14 APR 1943, 1SFTS on 17 MAY 1943.

BM740 issued to 22nd Troop Carrier SQN, 374th Troop Carrier Group, returned to 12 RSU at Macrossan (east of Charters Towers) 16 JUN 1943, became Instructional Oxford Airframe No.4 in 1944.

Hope this is of no interest whatsoever, but thanks for reading,
JB

[Warhawk]

Ok......

Have a pic of a USAAF Oxford somewhere too. Can't find it

Anyway attached is the 5thAAF source list per numbers



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[Warhawk]

Anyways

Its a Tiger Moth or a PT-24 in 5thAAF Service ..got two later ones now per MC-959 and MC-960

10/05/1943 PT-24 959 Hq 49FG 5 TOA 4 Lee, Donald H Jr NGU Oro Bay
20/01/19 44 Tiger Moth 960 Hq 45SerG 5 LAC 5 Harsh, Forrest R NGU


So two got to PNG at least

[Warhawk]

Other example data I'm researching through which shows in Sept 1942 MC961/962/965 with 370th Service Squadron based at I think Tocumwal. The former assigned to the 8th Fighter Group (P-39s).

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[batman]

In "US Military A/c Designations and Serials" (Andrade, p.159), it looks like the PT-24 designation only applied to a Canadian-built D.H.82Cs taken over by the US:
"The designation PT-24-DH was given to 200 de Havilland Canada-built D.H.82C Tiger Moths (c/n 1303/1502) which had been given the RCAF serials 1100/1299 before being funded under Lend-Lease and serialled 42-964/1163. They were delivered to the RCAF with the RAF serials FE100/266 and FH618/650." Boy, how many serials does an a/c need?

So now across to "British Military Aircraft Serials" (Robertson, p.141)
"FE100-FE266 D.H.82C (167 a/c) Canadian-built Lend-Lease funded as USAAF 42-964 to 42-1130 for Canadian training schools.
FH618-FH650 D.H.82C (PT-24) (33 a/c) Canadian-built Lend-Lease funded USAAF 42-1131 to 42-1163."

Just as a coincidence, that '964' number did look familiar as an Australian-built Tiger to the 5th AF.

[Warhawk]

Yes,..per DHC 200 PT-24 aircraft contract. FY42-964 to 42-1163/ RAF Allotted Serials FE100 to FE266/ FH618 to FH650. I don't think teh USAAF or the RAF used them,,,thus somehow a third serial batch allotted: this time RCAF : 1100 to 1299.

Engine designation "L-375-1" must be for the same Gypsy engine.

The Americana used quite a few RAF ones in the UK though..even there they mentioned "PT-24" per accidents..sigh

So,..must have been recorded as a "PT-24" from a new stateside Officer (ASC-3) arriving in PNG.


The then Capt Donald Lee who bent the "PT-24" aka Aussie DH-82A #969, was with the 7th FS/49thFG from the start in March 42 into mid 1943. Bit of a change of performance from his normal 7thFS mount; P-40K 42-46288 #13 "Poopey II". He shot down two Japanese SF 06/03/43 in it.
He was also with the Horn Island flight during the first raid there,.....March 42. Not sure if he claims a bunch then since his P-40E #303 had part of the wing removed by a Zero during the fight.

You are not alone JB,...even I digest from the topic..... :) LOL

[batman]

Re Tiger,
Yes Andrade (p.236) gives the L-375 as the DH Gipsy Major.

Although nothing to do about Australian Tigers, "Lend-Lease A/c in WW2" (Pearcy, p.155) also gives these details: LL Requisition 2670, Contract DA-230.
And pic of RCAF "90', probably 1190/FE190/42-1054.