Identifying An Unknown Airman

Some time ago I found out about this grave on another forum and during a recent visit to Queensland I went out to locate it. It is the only unknown Australian Airman grave in Australia and is located at Lutwyche Cemetery, Queensland.

Two weeks ago I contacted the Office of Australian War Graves looking for information about his buried date but drew a blank as the OAWG and the Commonwealth War Graves Commissions do not keep a database of Unknown graves. Finally, I called Brisbane City Council and got in touch with the government department that deals with the city's cemeteries who advised me that this unknown RAAF member was buried on 29 Jun 70.

This date told me that he had recently been found and repatriated back to Australia for burial. After doing some quick searching through my information I now believe that this Unknown member MAY have been a crew member aboard C-47A (A65-61/VH-CUT) which departed Biak for Townsville on 18 Sep 45 on a medical evacuation flight with 29 persons on board and was not heard from again. It was found 25 years later, in 1970.

The other interesting piece of information I got from the council was that he was buried by RAAF Amberley, most likely by the Base Squadron at the time and I will endevour to look further into this when possible with the few leads I have.

This is by no means a hard task and actually identifying this member may not ever happen but the prospect of narrowing down who this person may be and which aircraft he was on is very interesting.

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Herkman, do you have any recollections of any flights from PNG to Amberley around May/June 1970 bringing this member back home?

Sorry mate I have no info on this one.

May not have been a big deal as far as size was concerned, most of the WW2 remains I saw were boxed in about 450 x 300 x 300, so they would have just been another small box in the load.

However I suspect that there must be more to this than meets the eye.

1. For the airman to be indentified as unknown RAAF, something else must have trigered this. He could have been a pax on a USA aircraft, or there must be a link with a RAAF airframe. If it is the latter, the way that he could have become unknown, was that there was a second or more person, who also could not be identified. They of course could be buries elsewhere.

2. There has to be a burials officer at Amberley, usually a junior officer, who could still be around. There also should be a burials file at Amberley.

3. Also the air force would have a contract for the actual internment, I would think that there would not be many funeral directors in the Amberley area, and a check may reveal who was the guys who did the job.

4. My last point is this appears to be a war grave, perhaps they may be able to throw some light on the matter.

Regards

Col

I doubt by the way it could be from 61. The remains from this aircraft were only recovered recently, even though the wreck was located earlier.

Col

I have actually seen some information (can't remember where) that a recovery did take place when the aircraft was originally found. Just too coincidental in my opinion.

My understanding is that the recovery in 1970, was greatly hampered by the abilty of the UH1 helecopters.

On google search A65-61 tells several stories that in 1970 some remains be it limited, were buried in PNG, but states nothing about any coming back to Australia. Apparently all in a common grave.

One story I had heard was the latest recovery, that one person was missing. Also a pistol was alleged to be found about 150 meters from the wreck.

Some think that this is unlikely, and it was more likely that it could have moved by an animal.

I can find no report on the latest search, that a person was missing.

I would like to think that your idea is correct, but if the reports are correct, then it creates the thought, where did the chap come from. why could he not be identified. Then we are presuming that he was a flyer, but as you would be aware this description of Airman could really apply to any member of the RAAF.

I cannot believe that there are no files on this and similair incidents. Is there nothing in the record storage on this matter.

In conclusion I like you would like to see the proof of who he is, so perhaps the headstone could reflect.

All the best mate.

Regards

Col

I thought I had lost this. Luckily I saved it into my files. This was sent to me last year by Peter Dunn. It says that there was a recovery so now I would like to ask "what was recovered?"

I have since checked the Unit History Sheets for 5 Squadron and Base Squadron Amberley and, with 5 Sqn, the only time it mentions any members being in PNG is in October 1970, which is after the burial date of the Unknown Airman. I emailed Steve Allan at the Historical Section and he advised that he believed it was policy for the remains to be buried in the closest war cemetery. If this is the case and if the above mentioned policy is true then this grave cannot belong to any one from A65-61.

The mystery deepens.

This post has been edited by Dean on Dec 13 2006, 10:08 PM

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Unknown to me, and I suspect until recently to most, there is a concern about 72 members of the AIF, who are burried in unmarked graves in this cemetry.

A Mr Rennie has led the push for this matter to be corrected, and has identified 35 of the men and their graves.

Mr Rennie appears to be the only person by that name who lives in the Ipswich area, I have not rung him, as I thought that you would prefer to do that yourself.

In the article I saw that was published by the Ipswich Queensland Times, Mr Rennie seems to have made considerable efforts in identifing the un named graves. This article appeared in the IPswich Quuensland Times on the 3/11/06, and produced by Peter Foley.

Again I have made no contact, but I am sure he would run an article on this matter.

Thinking more about the subject, and why he could not be identified, at least back to an airplane, perhaps he was groundstaff, and because of the total circumstances no ID could be made.

When you think about it, most deceased were buried in the country where they fell. Someone went to a lot of trouble to find this guy, transport him to Australia and then intern him close to Amberly.

Have you asked Bob Piper, who would have been in charge of RAAF history at that time.

There is a lot more to this matter that should be on record.

Regards

Col

I received an interesting email from the Office of Australian War Graves the other day.

After I sent a photo of the Unknown Australian Airman's grave to them the OAWG did a bit of searching and got back to me this week saying that there is a second person buried in the same grave. I was also given the name of the second person as being "A. Pifter" who is reportedly from the Netherlands.

Is there a way of confirming this? And is this unusual?

Dean,

I believe there is a F/Sgt Edward Jones 420569 buried at the Lutwyche Cemetery and he was killed up near Caloundra. My point is how do u know this unknown airman was brought back from the SWPA?

Also that is unusual to bury two people together. Even more so given that they know the name of one of them and he doesn't appear to be a RAAF airman. Most unusual.

Gordon

The whole matter raises many concerns.

I suspect that for these two guys to be buried together, means that they could not identify them separately.

As it was fairly common for NEI aircrew to have RAAF people on board, it could be that these two guys were on board, maybe the RAAF as a PAX, but no records were kept.

If that was the case, one would think that the RAAF would have had concerns, when this fellow failed to appear.

Also the internment took place a long time after the actual death, and so there would be no outside pressure, to jump to a hasty decision.

Something is not right, and the RAAF would have had to arrange things. I cannot believe there is nothing on the Amberley burials file.

Col

I have been checking out the Dutch connection, and have put a post on

f16.parslimony.net/forum27947/index.htm.

Maybe that will drag something out.

However my contact in Holland indicates that there is no record of a Dutch national being killed in WW2 by the name Pfister. He also checked with no result, variations of this name Pfister and Pfaster.

Thinking about this some more, we do not appear to know where either of these guys were killed, we do not know how much of the remains were recovered, and in actual fact whether they were killed together.

We do not really know whether they were buried at the same time, or whether the grave was being used to top up for an unknown.

If these guys were killed in Australia, then the task may become easier, I am thinking of writing to Angus, and asking him to have a search made of what the RAAF has. I personally think that the RAAF should make every effort to identify this person.

There must be more, someone arranged to collect these remains, someone decided they would be in an unmarked grave, some authorised the internment to be paid for.

Dean can you email me acopy of the photo, so I can forward it to the RAAF.

Regards

Col

I am begining to believe that this unknown airman, was really killed within Australia, and my basis for this, is that he is buried here.

I can find no record, except for people who were killed on ships, of people who were brought back from overseas for burial.

The policy was until Vietnam, and even the early ones from that war, the fallen were laid to rest in the nearest war graves location.

I have before me a letter, which I am writing to the CAS Air Marshal Shepherd, but try as I can, I cannot find a mailing address.

AS A MATTER of urgency, can someone post either a postal or email address.

I am asking him to have conducted a full inquirey, and have outlined my concerns and thoughts in this matter. I would do him the courtesy of getting my letter, before I post it here.

The Dutch National is a mystery, and will remain so until we can establish if he was interned at the same time as our man. It could be that the war graves were using what space they had available.

I would not expect to hear anything from the overseas inquirey until overnight at the earliest.

Dean perhaps you could indicate the source of your original inquery on this matter.

Regards

Col

Herkman,
Just a correction on the Dutchman's name. It is A. PIFTER. Also the email I received mentions that this Dutchman was buried in 1949.

The enquiry is my own and all the information has come from the Office of Australian War Graves. I come to find out about this grave through another forum.




Gordon,
I have also been told that members were buried in the closest war cemetery to the location of the crash. This, and the fact that he was buried before the location of A65-61, now makes me firmly believe that this unknown Australian is not from Dakota A65-61. I didn't know if he was brough back or not. It was just the dates seemed to be coincidental as I knew A65-61 was first found in 1970 and since he was buried around that time I just put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5. My bad.

Anyway, surely, there must be something in the local newspapers from the day. What about the local RSL? Would they know anything?

Regards

This post has been edited by Dean on Jan 22 2007, 07:36 PM

Col,
You bet me to it.

Rather than post what is really a private letter to the CAS, which he might take offense to, I am going to post the facts presented etc with this matter.

1. This appears to be the only unknown RAAF grave in Australia.

2. It is very likely that the Air Force is the only people who can unravel this riddle.

3. The issue is clouded by a Dutch National being in the same grave.

4. His name Pifter and variations of that name Pfister and Pfaster do not appear as being killed in WW2, according to the Dutch war graves people.

Further more he was buried in 1949, in a war grave, which could mean that he was killed after the war, but to be in a war grave he should have been a servicemen.

5. The RAAF member, could have been involved in the same accident, but it appears unlikely, unless as a result of more information, the RAAF did a new search in the same area, many years after the incident that reveals the Dutch remains.

It is most unlikely, the RAAF would have sat on the remains from 1949 to 1970.

6. It is considered that the events taking the life of of the RAAF person, did occur outside Australia, as he would have been interned in the nearest war cementry.

7. When this man was discovered, there should have been RAAF inquirey and maybe some civilian inquirey took place.

8. Someone from the RAAF, sought assistance for and paid for the funeral. Their must be some correspondance on this matter as well.

9. At the end of the war, there could have been many members of the RAAF missing, as a result of operation from and within Australia. This could have been reduced, by the incidences that were known, and have been found since. This would leave a small list of unknown fates.

10. It is extreemly likely that only a small amount of remains were recovered, which prior to DNA, would have not been enough to identify from.

11. However with the passing of time, the number of people it could be, have been greatly reduced.

12. We cannot overlook that the death may be from foul play.

13. It does appear as if RAAF Amberley arranged the internment, which points to an upper NSW or lower QLD point of death.

I have asked the Air Marshal, to appoint someone to investigate this matter. Also stating that it is not reasonable that this man lie in a unknown grave.

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Now Dean, I am not trying to stomp over your inquirey, but am trying to give help. The Air Force as you know, will give more service to me as a civilian, than you as a serving member.

I was thinking of writing a letter to the Dutch Ambassidor, now we know Pifter was dead in 1949, he may be able to throw some light bon the matter. What I cannot understand is why no headstone was put on his grave, unless too he could not be identified. It is also possable that if he were missing from WW2, that they never recorded his death. Maybe the events of 1949 passed them by.

Dean let me have your thoughts on this action.

Only unknown RAAF grave is Australia, should not be so.

Regards

Col

You are right Col, when you say that you can get more information from them as a civilian than I can as a member.

As far as righting a letter to ACM Houston the best course of action would be to write/contact to the Dept of Veteran's Affairs. I say this because a earlier post in this forum about the whereabouts of Flt Lt Edward Melville White.

In the original post I mentioned that the aircraft he was Captain of (Mitchell A47-37) was reported found some years after the war, although the crew were still listed as missing by the CWGC (This information of the aircraft being found was taken from the book Highest Traditions).

The gentleman who initiated this enquiry then wrote to the DVA whom then contacted the RAAF. Eventually those members conducting the inquiry on behalf of DVA then contacted me looking for information.

I totally agree with your facts you have listed. One thing I would like to do though is get copies of the information with which the OAWG found listing Pifter as being in this grave as well. I may also have to contact the cemetery again to see if they have info on Pifter as well.

Will keep you informed.

There is a husband and wife team in Holland, who appear to devote life to dutch history, and the fate of Dutch servicemen.

If you do not have it, here it is.

Imperia555@hotmail.com.

Overnite he was the guy who told me that Pifter was not killed in WW2.

I have gone back now and asked him, was he reported as missing.

Some more thoughts.

Pifter could have belonged to the NEIAF, and could have been lost with our chap. long shot maybe, but he could have been found in 1949, and the RAAF went back years later and found our guy. Very long shot, but stranger things have happened.

He could have been hitching a ride, as far as the RAAF were concerned he went AWOL, and just never came back.

On the other hand the war graves people may have been using space, in four years and 25 years respectively, a great deal of the remains may have gone.

However under their policy, they and DVA have to qualify the burial.

Why bury Pifter in an unmarked grave, unless of course they could not identify him, but Pifter was apparently not killed, but could have been reported missing.

The RAAF by 1970, would have had good resources to identify our chap, why did they not do so, its not like they had thousands to search through. Something sent the bells ringing that he was RAAF, wonder what it was.

Tomorrow I will ask the Dutch consulate, to check back to 1949, and see if they knew of Pifter. If he is a serviceman, he deserves to be placed along side his seven countrymen, and his grave marked accordingly.

Justice may be done.

I sent the letter to G Shepherd, as he as the head of the Air Force should have the responsibily. Never before had the joy of asking a Air Marshal for help.

Strange one this one, will be interesting story, perhaps it could end up in the RAAF news.

I wonder if the Air force keeps a roll, of those still unaccounted for from WW2.

Regards

Col

Ok. I have been completely confused with my own information which I have unwittingly, and unfortunately, passed on through my posts here. Here is a copy of the email I received from OAWG which explains the ACTUAL situation with Pifter.


QUOTE: "Further to your e-mail and photos of the unknown airman's grave in Lutwytche Cemetery, I just thought I would let you know what information has come my way. Unfortunately, we still don't know who the airman is but our Manager in Queensland found out that the grave has had two burials. The first a Dutchman, 22 year old A. Pifter who was buried 13 March 1946 and then moved on 14 December 1949. The second burial was the unknown Australian airman who was buried 29 June 1970. His last known address is listed as RAAF Amberley. A second address listed is the Defence Department, Victoria.

Other than that, this Office has no record of who he may be." END QUOTE


I apologise for the confusion I have passed on.

Yes a RAAF airman could have operational service in WW2, or even Korea, and so would be entitled to a war grave.

The question is the address at RAAF Amberley, could be purely an administrative one, used when his remains were recoverd.

The Dutch fellow was killed in 1946, again his service could indicate operational service, or otherwise he could not normally have a war grave. However they moved him, from where I wonder.

Dean as you have the contact there, maybe you could ask for all the information, on both internments, particularly if Pifter was buried elsewhere, why he was moved
without any marker to where he lies.

They knew his name, and yet still stowed him in an unmarked grave.

I am begining to have hunch, that these guys were not connected.

But the headstone says WW2, which would rule out Korea or Vietnam, or would it.

Regards

Col

I have today recieved two replies from Holland, from the WW2 research people.

The reply was in regard to my question, could pifter be posted as missing and never upgraded.

The answer was NO and Klemen went on to say that only two male Pfister,s listed as being killed.

H F Pfister killed 28/10/45 buried Kembang Kuning Surabaya

and

Emile Ferdinand Cornelis Pfister killed 21/01/1944 buried Buiten Erevelden Indonesia.

He then goes on to refer to the Dutch war graves people, which I had already done.

I have a second email from him, suggesting we find the accident which took his life.

The only way I can see that happening, is the war graves people make a real effort to find the paper trial.

I am today writing to the Dutch consol, but I really do not know if they can or will help.

Air Marshal Shepherd should have his letter now, let us hope he takes a interest.

Regards

Col

Thanks for the info and actions Col and the corrections Dean.

I guess what we should do now is list what we do know, just in bullet points, so we are clear of our starting point. Also once we've done that I'll approach the local RSL and try and pique their interest too, as well as see if I can get something in the local Lutwyche rag. The more the merrier.

Who knows what will fall out when u shake the tree.

Gordon

Luckly all of these events took place within living memory.

You are right, I think there is a lot more waiting to come out.

A story in the local paper may flush out some good clues.

Dean are you or I going to approach

Regards

Col

By the way any of you QLD guys, is there a Dutch newspaper in that area.

Regards

Col

Col,

Do u mean a Dutch newspaper for the Brisbane area? I don't know of one.

By the way Lutwyche is an inner northern suburb of Brisbane and the newspaper I was referring to was one that serviced the northern suburbs of that area.

Do we know if this is the only "unknown RAAF" grave in Australia?

Gordon

Gordon,
To my knowledge, yes, this IS the only Unknown Australian Airman grave in Australia. I have a hard copy list of Unknown Airman graves through out Europe and other locations and there is approximately 47 Unknown Australia airmen around the world.

Col,
I would like to do it but time is extremely unkind to me at the moment (and will be for sometime) so I must decline to do it.

Regards

OK Dean I will take up my pen and start writing.

I will keep you all updated through the board

Regards

Col

The chief has spoken.

Air Marshal Shepherd has appointed a Flt/Lt by the name of M.V.French, who is to look into and report to me the full details.

This fellow comes from the Directive of Coordination, whatever that means, but with the CAS backing him, if the information is there, all will be revealed.

I have heard nothing from the Dutch Consul, but as the records could now be held in Holland, it will take a while.

Will keep you in the loop.

Regards

Col

Hello Col, Dean and Gordon,

I had an enquiry somw timw ago from overseas re our Dutch Fellow Pifter.

I also had a similar reply from OAWG, but on pressing them, they then said that what was meant by being 'buried together' did not mean buried in the same grave but could mean buried next to each other, buried at the same time, or buried in the same plot area !!

I have some of the graves registration for Lutwyche but there is no Pifter or similar name mentioned.

There is no Pifter in Aus or Dutch Telephone directory, although I did not check many other alternate spellings.

I was, therefore, not much help to my enquirer. It is possible that this fellow was later moved to the NEI or to Holland.

As to our unknown airman, I am in two minds.
1. Relatives would probably want to know if their loved one was found and properly buried.
2. There is something symbolic about the grave of an unknown solder (or sailor or airman), and represents all those who were never properly identified or buried.

Lets see what the initial investigation reveals.

Regards,
Tony

Penguin832,
You may have missed my post of 24 Jan 07. It explains that I messed the whole subject up by initially believing that the two WERE buried together when they in fact are NOT.

My bad.

Time to dust this one off again, as a result of the Wilson inquirey, the war graves people have put me in touch with a guy who should be able to help on this one.

The RAAF in a year in spite of a follow up at eight mionths have not come back.

Might have to go back to the CAS, would not think that he will be impressed.

Watch these spaces.

Regards

Col

Actually Col, I emailed FLTLT French just this morning asking him aout his progress. As yet I haven't got a reply (only because I am not at work again until Monday arfternoon to read it)

Dean and Col,

Has anyone got back to either of u two yet?

Gordon

Still waiting. You know how government dept's work.

Sure do. Slower than snail's pace. B)

Gordon

How long does it take to pull the funeral file from Raaf Amberley.

I am about to give one last rocket, and then I will go down the minister track.

As some of you may know I am photographing every war grave in Tasmania, and so I getting some contacts within AWG,

Dean there are only two unidentified war graves in Australia, one in the AWM from WW1 and this poor bugger, who deserves better than he has gotten.

Have not given up by a long chance.

Will keep you all in the picture.

Regards

Col

Col,
I have photos of most of the RAAF graves at Lutwyche QLD and Karrakatta WA if you need them.

Re Gordon's post way back, there are two Jones graves at Lutwyche, this is the one referred to by Gordon.



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And this is the other.

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Thanks for the photos Grahame.

Gordon

Sorry to drag up an old thread..but just found this may be of interest to the conversation [URL=http:// http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Oddie-8]Unknown Airman[/URL]

It is sad when one considers the effort put in by many that the results do not manifest them selves into the actual facts.

Let us forget about the Dutchman who is supposed to be buried in the same grave his presence only confuses the situation.

However we have done a lot of work on this matter and I will reply in details when I can pull my notes.

Three men were posted to the RAF in Sumatra and were flying one night in Indonesia when bad weather rolled in and were unable to land and ran out of fuel. The aircraft crashed with three men on board. The aircraft was not discovered until after the war and by then the remains which were few were of two men, the third party could not be located.

As a result of investigations both the RAAF and war graves people know who is interned but either the NOK or the Air Force seem loath to correct the marker.

I will revert shortly

Regards

Col

Only just found this post form the last entry.

For what it is worth I was on the funeral party for this airman, I was posted to Amberley at the time.
We were told that he was form a Beaufort but could have been a Blenheim (memory is a bid dim) he was one of three crew that could not be identified.

This one was a member of 211 Sqn RAF P/o Mackay's Blenheim Crew lost Friday 13/02/42: Serial was unknown,...(but Z0713 or Z7586 or Z7699 were lost on either side of date with some RAAF Crews/members as well in Sumatra). Mackay was a Vic whereas Oddie was a Qld.

Gordy

If you'll pardon me belatedly saying so, some errors in the last post, for example

Mackay: was from Qld
Oddie: was from Vic
[Payne: was from Western Australia].

Their aircraft was apparently Blenheim IV Z9829.

My 211 Squadron website (also referenced in the Oddie wikitree post mentioned twice above) has long recorded the crew and their loss:

F/O NH Oddie: http://www.211squadron.org/nh_oddie.html
Blenheim Z9829 http://www.211squadron.org/bristol_blenheim_iv__.html#Z9829


Further reading for those with the time to follow more links
211Squadron RAF
http://www.211squadron.org/
Far East 1942
http://www.211squadron.org/the_far_east.html
Sumatra and Java
http://www.211squadron.org/sumatra___java.html

RAAF members
http://www.211squadron.org/raaf_personnel.html
Far East
http://www.211squadron.org/raaf_personnel.html#FarEast
FE Survivors
http://www.211squadron.org/raaf_personnel.html#FESurvivors
FE Losses
http://www.211squadron.org/raaf_personnel.html#FElosses

Don Clark
www.211squadron.org

This post has been edited by Don Clark on May 6 2019, 09:46 AM