Canberra A84-231? Found Perhaps, F/O M. Herbert & P/O R. Carver ?

[Luig]

Minister for Defence Media Mail List
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THE HON. WARREN SNOWDON MP
Minister for Defence Science and Personnel Tuesday, 21 April 2009
057/09

WRECKAGE OF RAAF AIRCRAFT FOUND IN VIETNAM

Minister for Defence Science and Personnel, Hon. Warren Snowdon MP today announced that an Australian Investigation Team believes it has found the aircraft flown by the last two Australian Defence Force members missing in Vietnam.

Flying Officer Michael Herbert and Pilot Officer Robert Carver disappeared on 3 November 1970. They had conducted a bombing mission and were returning to base when their Canberra bomber was lost without trace.

“The Australian Defence Investigation Team are confident they have located the Royal Australian Air Force Canberra bomber wreckage in thick jungle in an extremely rugged, remote and sparsely populated area of Quang Nam Province, Vietnam, near the Laotian border,” said Mr Snowdon.

Mr Snowdon said the Defence team has spent a week in the isolated province gaining information and hiking in to the wreck site. The recovery team deployed to the site by foot on Wednesday 15 April. While no human remains were found, a number of military artifacts have been discovered including a club badge which was unique to RAAF’s No. 2 Squadron.

“These brave airmen gave their lives in the service of their nation, and locating the crash site is an important step in accounting for them, “ said Mr Snowdon.

“Relatives of the two crewmen have been advised of the discovery, and Air Force will continue to keep them updated.”

Mr Snowdon praised the work of the DSTO in using innovative modeling techniques in order to refine the area of interest, plus the exhaustive and skilled research and expertise of the Army History Unit in supporting the Air Force investigation.

“Invaluable assistance has also been given by a number of former North Vietnamese and Viet Cong soldiers and their commanders as well as many local villagers, and their compassion and commitment in assisting us is humbling,” Mr Snowdon said.

Mr Snowdon said the next step would be a thorough archaeological dig which will confirm whether there are any human remains at the crash site.

[Dean]

This is great news. I've seen a couple of photographs of small parts of the wreckage however I guess they still have to determine if the crew ejected or, if they died in the aircraft, that their remains can be recovered.

[Demon50]

This Canberra bomber was lost over 38 years ago in thick jungle in an extremely rugged, remote and sparsely populated area of Quang Nam Province, Vietnam, near the Laotian border, according to reports.

I find it amazing that the wreckage has been found after all this time and I wonder how long its location might have been known to the former North Vietnamese soldiers, Viet Cong and local villagers who assisted the RAAF and Army personel in locating the wreckage of A84-231.

I also wonder what identified it as a RAAF aircraft (only two were lost over Vietnam) when thousands of US aircarft were lost.

[Luig]

Demon50: Several news reports quotes including initial ADF report first post:

"...found military artefacts, including a club badge linking the wreckage to RAAF No2 Squadron."
&
"...a number of military artifacts have been discovered including a club badge which was unique to RAAFs No. 2 Squadron."

[darren.crick]

I was quickly looking at a paper yesterday and it had an image of oxygen cylinders, havnt we seen something like that here... or was it of another type?

[Luig]

Wreckage Of RAAF Aircraft Found In Vietnam 23 April 2009

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2009/Apr/20090423a/index.htm

An Australian Defence team is confident it has located the Royal Australian Air Force Canberra bomber flown by Flying Officer Michael Herbert and Pilot Officer Robert Carver.

The aircraft wreckage is in an extremely rugged and remote area of Quang Nam Province, Vietnam, near the border with Laos.

FLGOFF Herbert and PLTOFF Carver are the final two missing Australian Defence Force personnel from the Vietnam War."
_________________________________

I'm guessing this is a 'club badge' referred to in news release showing the ICON of the day - Mr. Alfred E. Neumann (of MAD magazine fame) - in this instance bearded:

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download....df00000_001.jpg

Attached Image

[Rod Farquhar]

An article in "SA Weekend"- todays Advertiser on this subject.
The badge is for the Phan Rang Ugly Club, there were only 13 members, the remaining 12 still have their badges so pretty positive identification.
The area is extremely rugged and difficult to reach. Local Montagnard tribesmen have been using wreckage for many years as source of wire for snares.
Excavations due to start next month (July ?)
Rod.

[Luig]

Thanks for headsup Rod. Here is an online link to story:

http://www.news.com.au/adelaidenow/story/0,22606,25660613-5018553,00.html

[gph]

Do we know if the seats were still in the aircraft?

GPH

[Rod Farquhar]

The article and accompanying pics indicate that there is very little left of the aircraft visible, some digging will be required.

If an ejection had been made the seats would have triggered the IFF squawk.

The fact that the Ugly Club badge was found in the wreckage indicates to me that the owner was still on board at the time of impact.

Another small article in the Advertiser this week states that the recovery crew have set out on the long treck in.

I guess all will be revealed soon.

Rod.

[Luig]

Minister for Defence Media Mail List
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THE HON. GREG COMBET AM MP
Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science

Thursday, 30 July 2009
030/2009

REMAINS OF AUSTRALIA’S LAST TWO MISSING ADF MEMBERS FOUND IN VIETNAM

Greg Combet, Minister for Defence Personnel, Materiel and Science, today announced that the remains of the final two missing Australian Defence Force personnel from the Vietnam War have been located.

“An Air Force investigation team which recently deployed to Vietnam have found human remains at the site where the wreckage of a Royal Australian Air Force Canberra bomber was located in April this year,” Mr Combet said.

“The aircraft, which went missing on 3 November 1970, was flown by Flying Officer Michael Herbert and Pilot Officer Robert Carver. The wreckage was located in thick jungle in an extremely rugged, remote and sparsely populated area of Quang Nam Province, Vietnam, near the Laotian border.”

Mr Combet said the recovery team discovered human remains in the vicinity of the crash site. The remains were transported to Hanoi, where Vietnamese and Australian forensic specialists identified them as those of Flying Officer Michael Herbert and Pilot Officer Robert Carver.

“Relatives of the two crew members have been advised of the discovery and Air Force will continue to keep them updated. These airmen gave their lives in the service of their nation. I hope finding the remains of the airmen will bring some comfort to the families.

“This is an excellent result for the investigation team and the cooperation of the Vietnamese authorities has been exceptional and highly valued by the team and the Government of Australia.

“Invaluable assistance has been given by a number of former North Vietnamese and Viet Cong soldiers and their commanders as well as many local villagers. Their compassion and commitment to assisting this vital mission is greatly appreciated,” Mr Combet said.

Mr Combet praised the work of the Defence Science and Technology Organisation in using innovative modelling techniques in order to refine the area of interest, plus the exhaustive and skilled research and expertise of the Army History Unit in supporting the investigation.

He also acknowledged the efforts and commitment to the recovery of Australian war dead shown by Jim Bourke and Operation Aussies Home.

A timetable for the return of these remains to Australia has yet to be agreed between the Australian and Vietnamese Governments. Details of the burial of the airmen are a private matter for the families.

Media Note

Further details of the successful recovery mission will be made publicly available once the Air Force team returns from Vietnam and has had the opportunity to fully brief the Herbert and Carver family members.

[Rod Farquhar]

Well done all!
There have been some limited pics on the electronic media, no doubt more will follow.
Rod.

[Luig]

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2009/Apr/20090421/index.htm

At this official website Robert Carver's photo is incorrectly mirrored I think.
_____________________________________

Official final recent media release:

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/gregCombettpl.cfm?CurrentId=9318
_______________________________

Photo series on investigation efforts:

http://www.defence.gov.au/media/download/2009/jul/20090730/index.htm

______________________________

See a discussion about photos and 'mirroring' here:

http://rnzaf.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=Aussie&thread=9039&page=1

This post has been edited by Luig on Aug 3 2009, 04:56 AM

[Rod Farquhar]

In today's Advertiser is a short story entitled " Loyal Aviator's Last Mission"

I will not name names but the gist of the story is that this man was an Lac Safety Equipment Worker at 2Sqn in 1970.

He states that he was good friends with Michael Herbert and that he regularly flew with the crew as an Observer. On the night they went missing he declined to go on the mission.

He also states that he is going to Hanoi next week to accompany the bodies home.

I have never heard of any ground crew flying in a Canberra as an Observer ( has anyone else?) especially in a combat zone. A Canberra being only a two seat aircraft and the cockpit being rather cramped it seems most unlikely.

I rang the Reporter that wrote the story and expressed my concerns as to it's accuracy, they will further investigate the matter.
Rod. <_<

[Luig]

Rod, I had a quick look online at the Tiser but could not find the story. Anyway another avenue to explore about 'fake veterans' would be here:

http://www.anzmi.net/

"The Australasian Military Fraud
Often called by the derogatory term "wannabe" these are men and women who may or may not have served in the armed forces, but who fraudulently misrepresent themselves as having served; often in a theatre of war by their words and actions, and by wearing of medals and other accoutrements to military service to which they have no entitlement."

http://www.anzmi.net/report.html

"Suspected Impostor Investigation Form
If you are ever in doubt about a person allegedly falsely claiming to be a current or ex-serving member of the Army, Air Force or Navy, or someone wearing awards which you believe they are not entitled to wear - don't hesitate to fill out this form.

If he or she is not genuine, then you are doing every genuine member (past or present) of the services a favour by exposing another impostor. We will respond to all reports, but the research may take some time due to;

We can accept cases for investigation only in Australia and New Zealand."
______________________

Interesting story here that is partly relevant (RAAF service Vietnam early 1970s):

http://www.anzmi.net/apologykwm1/apologykwm1.html
___________________________

http://www.vvaa.org.au/

Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia

This post has been edited by Luig on Aug 20 2009, 01:49 PM

[Rod Farquhar]

Thanks Phil.
I was aware of the imposter reporting, there have been a number of them over the years.
This fellow is most probably who he says he is but is embroidering things a bit, he admitted to having some phsyc problems after Vietnam.
Rod.