Abc "australian Story" About F/o Missing In,, Vietnam Michael Herbert next Monday 2000

[Luig]

Have been informed that the next edition of "Australian Story" on the ABC next Monday (in Sydney) at 2000 will be about the MIA F/O Michael Herbert and his navigator apparently shot down in a Canberra at night way back during Vietnam War era.

My interest would be that Michael was on my pilot course No.67 graduating at the end of 1968 on the second last Vampire course at RAAF Pearce. Adrian Slootjes was a cadet pilot who went with "Herbie" to Canberras (& Vietnam).
Phil.

This post has been edited by Luig on Oct 9 2007, 11:25 AM

[Rod Farquhar]

There is a pic of mine of A84-231 in the gallery, taken at Phan Rang in 1967.
Rod.

[Luig]

My apologies. Today I had a chance myself to see the repeat of the promo for Monday's "Australian Story". Probably it will not be specifically about the missing Canberra crew members. Saw an 'aircrew' in a flying helmet named "Gillespie" and not Mike Herbet. However the story continues regarding missing personnel in Vietnam. The series may continue over coming weeks about other missing personnel - don't know at moment.

This post has been edited by Luig on Oct 13 2007, 03:37 PM

[gordon]

Hi Luig,

Can u give me some more info. Who else was on No. 67 pilot course at Pearce other than u and Michael? Was Adrian on the same course? What were the dates for the running of the No. 67 pilot course? Do u know where all the pilots went from your course?

I presume No. 68 Pilot course on Vampires was held in 1969. Is that correct?

Gordon

[Luig]

Gordy,
Do you want the full Monty here or just the good bits? :ph34r: Watch this space. Just quickly before I go to gather all the details (they no longer reside in my noggin) No.67 Pilot Course started at Point Cook around Sept/Oct 1967 with ground school. The graduates from the nearby RAAF College joined us more or less then also. At start of 1968 we started Flying Training on Winjeels with an A and B Flight (I was on B flight I think). With one exception we all moved on to RAAF Pearce in mid year graduating from the second last Vampire course at the end of 1968. The four Midshipmen returning to NAS Nowra at beginning of 1969.

No.68 Pilot course also started as usual via Point Cook and Winjeels but they made their jet start on Macchis, beginning a few months after our start in July, so it would be perhaps October/November? While we were at Pearce half the instructors were retraining on Macchis. So it was a hectic circuit there with GinGin being used for Macchi student training some times but not Vampires. No.69 was the very last Vampire course which started beginning of 1969. Courses overlapped during these years due to Vietnam War aircrew requirements.

At start of 1969 (No.1) AFTS was renamed No.2 FTS while the first of only two all jet (Macchi) training courses started that year. The concept was dropped for various reasons. There is a good free PDF book available on the web that gives a great overview of RAAF Pearce from inception until today. This PDF is about 5Mb - I can upload it to Darren to put on this website if anyone interested. Otherwise it is on the web. Please ask for details if required.

Yes Adrian Slootjes was one of the 'stars' who went to Canberras with 'Herbie' from No.67 course.
Phil.

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:07 AM

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[Luig]

The photo that was here until today 28 Dec 1968 had some incorrect names so these have been updated as seen below.

No. 67 Pilot Course: PLTOFF Alf Allan; PLTOFF Terry Jacobs [transferred from ARMY having graduated from Scheyville as a 2ndLt]; RAAF OCU QFI FLTLT Tony Ford; No. 69 Pilot Course: MIDN Owen Nicholls at RAAF PEARCE 26/27 Jun 1969 [No. 67 Pilot course was the second last Vampire course whilst No.68 was the first Macchi course and then No.69 was the LAST VAMPIRE course (all flew Winjeels first)]. The last 20 or so Vampires were being ferried to Laverton (MIDN had just graduated so I guess he did not participate in these ferry flights?).

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 28 2018, 03:08 PM

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[Luig]

Obligatory No.67 Pilot Course woven badge below. I'm looking for a text file with all names but can't find it at moment. If it needs to be recreated with details then that will take a day or two. Bear in mind that the RAAF 'despised' :lol: RAN fixed wing in those years and we had little to do with each other except occasional visits to Laverton, East Sale or Williamtown. Later the fixed wing expanded their reach but not in my time. I can count on one hand the number of times I ran into former No.67 pilots in the RAAF until I left flyiing in 1974-5. It should be noted that later the concept of combined ops took hold with interservice cooperation encouraged. Always a good thing. :rolleyes:

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[darren.crick]

your lookin quite young in those pics phil...

[Luig]

I bloody hope so Darren. :D That was almost 40 years ago but maybe my maths are crook. Been taking a break from computer work and will put a better graphic with names on the board tomorrow. Geez I will have to wrack my brain about where people went. BTW all the chaps on course got along well so my remarks about friction with RAAF otherwise pertain to a 'tongue in cheek' generalisation. :blink: I might add that a lot of Navy were antagonistic towards the Fleet Air Arm also sadly. (What was their problem? Dunno.) :rolleyes:

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:46 AM

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[Luig]

Keeping a legible photo to under 250Kbs is a task in itself, here is one attempt. ['BurstBalls' helmet is on the prop.]

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:35 AM

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[Luig]

Key to names/numbers above: (the number '67' on Winjeel is faked with a '6' (on paper) I think temporarily replacing whatever number was painted underneath.

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:18 AM

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[Luig]

Graduation photo end of December 1968 (without a massed flypast - too close to Christmas and leave). CDTAC Arnold Fox had already gone on leave, so he is missing from this photo.

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:20 AM

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[Luig]

With Graduation photo of No.67 Pilot Course as a reference here is my attempt to remember where pilots were posted after graduation. Remember most RAAF pilots have not been seen by me for 40 years, nor do I know much about what happened to them as I left the Navy in May 1975 (after 9.5 years in - from January 1966, having just turned 17 years old). I'll only use surnames for brevity. Most pilots were Cadet Aircrew being promoted to Flying Officer after graduation; while Midshipmen remained as such for about 18 months afterwards, which was really crook. This was a new innovation by the Navy - hooray to the Navy. :( Otherwise the F/Os with several exceptions were from RAAF College, with Jacobs and Stewart exceptions.

Burke: ARDU; Brewster: (maybe I'll remember later so this list will be edited); Scott: ASW?; Jacobs: ???; Conroy: Mirage and later AVM after Hornets etc; Ware: ???; Perry: Iroquois (Vietnam US Silver Star); Mayo: Iroquois (Vietnam Mentioned in Dispatches) Wessex, Sea King; Thompson: Skyhawk; Cooper: (Vietnam MID - all three were together with RANHFV3) Iroquois, Wessex, Sea King; McLean: Iroquois, died with Collett in Huey crash a year or so later; Herbert: died in a Canberra in Vietnam, MIA; Stewart: Hercules; Friend: Iroquois; Lean: ASW?; Mills: Mirage (Canberras?) then Hornets (F-111s?) I guess (saw him on ABC '4 Corners' doco recently); Smith (Lloyd): Mirage - died in crash at night in Malaysia a few years later; Gardiner: Hercules?; Smith (Phil): Mirage; Collett: died in Iroquois crash with McLean; Burstall: Caribou; Kwaczynski: Caribou?; Bowen: Iroquois; Robinson; Caribou?; Redman: Iroquois?; Slootjes: Canberras; Knispel: Hercules; Dutton: Caribou/Hercules?; Borysewicz: Hercules?; Allen: Mirage; Fox: Caribou?

Sadly way to many question marks but it has been 40 years. :-) I'm not meaning to offend anyone if there are mistakes. See above explanation please.

This post has been edited by Luig on Nov 30 2007, 08:28 AM

[Rod Farquhar]

Phil, a correction to your list of pilots on course. It was Les Smith, not Loyd. He was on a low level night navex 04-05-1972 out of Butterworth, 13nm south of where he should have been he flew into the slopes of Gunnong Tahan in the Taman Negara, Pahang State. I know because I was in the recovery team that was ferried up to the mountains, mind you there was not much to recover, hitting solid rock at 500+ knts is not recommended.
Rod.

[Luig]

Rod,
Thanks for details about "Lloyd" Smith. He was a good friend on the course always willing to give people a spin in his green? MG. It was a long time ago but definitely he used Lloyd; but sure Les would be an alternate to "Smithy" I guess. With two 'Smiths' on the course (the other Phil) we had to differentiate them. I'm willing to concede that I may have misremembered his name but for the course his name was 'Lloyd' to us. I think there was discussion what first name to use but what the alternate was I could only say (after your correction to "Les") that it must have been that one.

He would have an official RAAF name so I'm happy to abide by whatever it is.

He had been an "Erk"? RAAF electrical tradesman for a few years so he knew stuff about the RAAF unlike most of us (exceptions the F/Os) and of course was a few years older. He was always super enthusiastic, cheerful and energetic, cracking jokes against himself. It was great to see him go to Mirages. He was pleased as punch, sad that it ended the way it did. After the 2 lost in the Iroquois outside of Canberra it was still a shock to hear about his death.
Phil.

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 1 2007, 04:21 PM

[jeep1943]

Is J.E. Knispel the same Knispel who owns Nippy's Friut Juices in SA?

[Luig]

Jeepney,
I don't know if John Knispel is the same chap you mention. I'm in NSW here outside of Sydney (where is SA?). :blink:

A few years ago I saw a TV news report describing a "John Knispel" getting into trouble in his light aircraft (approaching Melbourne I think?) and having a near miss with someone else. I don't know anything more than that and what the outcome may have been. But I would imagine that John woud still be flying if he was able today. Only a guess on my part.

Thanks for the tip:
http://www.nippys.com.au/aboutUs.php

I would guess this photo was taken twenty odd years ago? Certainly the stocky build of this bloke is like "Nippy" ['Don't call me Nippy'] (or 'Nippa') himself (remember 40 years ago now).
Phil.

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 1 2007, 08:09 PM

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[Luig]

Ain't the web wonderful:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=110899&page=4

"Virgin near miss a non event: pilot
" It's pretty much a non-event," John Knispel, a former air force transport pilot, said.

The Adelaide based citrus grower was flying from Loxton on the New South Wales border to Melbourne at 17,500 feet on approach to Essendon Airport when he was asked to turn right by air traffic control.
"The Virgin flight was on the same path and descending at about twice my speed and halted at 18,000 feet," he said.
He then continued his descent once we had moved and we resumed course, just like the way it is supposed to happen ...
it was all very relaxed and there was no panic or concern in anyone's voices.
" I didn't see the Virgin flight and dit not attempt to sight it ...
I was too busy concentrating on making sure I followed the traffic controller's directions."

AND....

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2003/s1003753.htm

"JOHN KNISPEL, LIGHT AIRCRAFT PILOT: Compared to formation flying and simulations of air-to-air combat and dogfighting, what happened yesterday is a non-event.
As I said, my impression of what happened yesterday was the system worked the way it should.....
JOHN KNISPEL: As far as I know, the air traffic controller was watching both of our aircraft on his radar screen and also we were separated by vertical separation instructions.....
JOHN KNISPEL: The Virgin aircraft's equipment detected our aircraft because the transponder was working..."


This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 1 2007, 08:08 PM

[gph]

I think Graham "Chook" Dutton went to Neptunes. :huh: Now flying 767s for QANTAS.

[Luig]

That's him. Good ole chook with the cheesy grin. He must be retired now?

[gph]

I met him briefly in the mid 70s when he brought a Neppy down to NAS from Townsville on some kind of fleet exercise. Nice bloke.

It was one of those trips when nothing goes right and after an "interesting" arrival on day one, the following day the Neppy pumped out masses of smoke and shut down on the threshold of 26 during runup. I think there was a story about a sailor, seeing the jets under the wings, refuelled her with AVTUR vice AVGAS or something like that.

A mate has given me Chooks phone number and email off the quaint-ass database at my request. I was going to give him a call and ask him for the story first hand cause I had a speaking part in the "interesting" arrival. :(

So to the best of my knowledge he is still flying though as you say he must be close to hanging up his g-suit.

[Luig]

GPH, If you are able to contact him give him my best. I guess I'll be contacting people ex-RAAF one day. Difficult as it is getting in touch with ex-Navy. ^_^

Sure is an interesting story about the Neppy. Good that it was on ground and not inflight. He would be hanging up his GeeWhiz suit No? :rolleyes:

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 1 2007, 11:30 PM

[Luig]

Corrections to names in the No.67 Course Graduation Photo with Vampire (original JPG attached below).

No 67 PILOTS COURSE Graduation in front of Vampire Dec 1968 PEARCE WA

Front Row - Left to Right:
Cadet (Aircrew) Burke F.B., Flying Officers R.J. Brewster, K.R. Scott., [Pilot Officer] T.B. Jacobs., Flying Officers R.J. Conroy, P.A. Ware., Midshipmen Perry A.C., Mayo C., Thompson P.J., Cooper R.J., Flying Officers I.R. McLean, M.P. Herbert, D.P. Stewart, W.S. Friend, R.S.T. Lean, C.L. Mills.

Back Row - Left to Right:
Cadets (Aircrew) Smith L.M., Gardiner D.J., Smith P.J., Collett E.C., Burstall R.E., Kwaczynski H.F., Bowen W.L., Robinson F.W., Redman R.L., Slootjes A., Knispel J.E., Dutton G.L., Borysewicz R.A., Allen A.S., [CDTAC Fox A.F., not in photo - on early leave]

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 26 2018, 09:08 PM

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[Luig]

No 67 PILOTS COURSE Graduation Formal Group Photo Dec 1968 PEARCE WA

Front Row - Left to Right:
Pilot Officer T.B. Jacobs; Flying Officers I.R. McLean, M.P. Herbert; OCPEA GPCAPT E.B. Courtney MVO, Gov of WA MAJGEN Sir Douglas Kendrew KCMG CB CBE DSO, CO1AFTS WGCDR B.H. Collings AFC; Flying Officers I.R. McLean, R.J. Conroy, D.P. Stewart, P.A. Ware.

Middle Row - Left to Right:
Midshipman Perry A.C.; Cadets (Aircrew) Gardiner D.J., Burstall R.E., Redman R.L., Slootjes A., Smith P.J., Collett E.C., Allen A.S., Fox A.F., Smith L.M.; Midshipman Mayo C.

Back Row - Left to Right:
Midshipman Cooper R.J.; Flying Officer W.S. Friend; Cadets (Aircrew) Dutton G.L., Robinson F.W., Knispel J.E., Burke F.B.; Flying Officer C.L. Mills.; Cadets (Aircrew) Kwaczynski H.F., Bowen W.L., Borysewicz R.A.; Flying Officer R.J. Brewster; Midshipman Thompson P.J.

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[Luig]

To accurately answer: "Where did they go"? Here is the RAAF helo contingent:
From: http://5sqn.com.au/main.html JPG: RAAF 5 Squadron No.8 Iroquois Conversion Course 1969: http://0104.nccdn.net/1_5/04e/0b2/21b/8.jpg

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 27 2018, 01:36 PM

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[Luig]

The No.67 Pilot Course 'MIRACLE' workers :rolleyes: http://www.radschool.org.au/Books/the_raaf...e_story_opt.pdf (15Mb)

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 27 2018, 02:28 PM

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[Luig]

A few places on web have this DELTA team photo - I may find URL again.... 'HOOF' inda house! 1969? B)

This post has been edited by Luig on Dec 27 2018, 02:38 PM

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