HMAS Canberra

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

So we're getting two new LHDs, I have a few questions.

1. Why is it designed with a ski-jump ramp still there? I pretty sure we've only ordered F-35As (for the RAAF) not the (STOVL) F-35B or Carrier based F-35C for the RAN.

2. Is there even arresting cables on the stern of the flight deck to "catch" the F-35s if they wanted to launch and recover A/C?

3. I'm sure it will travel with escorts like a US Carrier Battle Group with maybe a Collins class as well. However it looks like it's only going to be armed with 4x25mm Typhoons. What no CIWS? No Evolved Sea Sparrows? No Rolling Airframe Missiles? All those are on the US Wasp-class LHDs

4. Lastly what type of missions will these LHDs be used for? Will they go to the Persian Gulf or as part of an anti-piracy Task Force off Somalia or simply patrol Northern Australia?
In my opinion I think we should acquire some MV-22 Osprey to operate to and from the ship. You can fast rope from them for ship boardings, they have a lot longer range and fold up nicely. See below:
(IMG:http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/V-22_Osprey_wing_rotated.jpg)

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Nobody wants to answer? Excuse me but this forum sucks, I like learning knew things from Vets especially about the new HMAS Canberra!

This post has been edited by Cold Dawg on Sep 13 2012, 03:40 PM

[Martin Edwards]

Cold Dawg

This is an aircraft forum so maybe just maybe the people who participate are more orientated towards aircraft rather than naval vessels.

As for some of your other questions eg the use of the Styer rifle, missing classified US equipment on RAAF Super Hornets, whether we should have AC-130s are all matters more to do with Defence policy rather than the aircraft of the Australian Defence Forces.

I refer you to our statement
It is our policy to only show historical events, no current operational information will be displayed on this website.

There is a wide spectrum of topics discussed on this forum and yes there is a lot to be learnt from the ex-service personell who frequently respond to questions however none of them have served on a type of ship that has yet to enter service.

[Warhawk]

Hi young Dawg

You don't win friends by saying [I]"Excuse me but this forum sucks"

[To your question, why the skip jump?

Its there because it would require more money to redesign the deck and rebalance the ships C of G. Having said that, they felt it could be used when cross decking USMC AV-8Bs or future F-35Bs if the need arises.

Should an national emergency requiries that we dig deep and buy F-35Bs, then training, and reskilling, a application of the new type of paint used on the USS Wasp, and a bit of handling trainig would all be that was needed.

The current plan is that a AWD or two will accompany the Amphib Group where ever, along with upgraded ANZAC Frigates.

Should the need arise, then with the primary Air Surveillance (Graiffe ) is already on, and only needs the CEA Phased Array radar added along with a Spaced allowed Mk41 48 Cell Vertical launcher added. Meantime it has the Australian Designed Nulkalla Decoy Rocket System available, a world class Aussie designed(and ordered for most US Navy Ships). 20mm CIWS can be bolted on out of our pool on the corners of the flight deck within days as they have independant operated/target acquisition and only need power outlet.

Further to this, as exampled per LPHs in 2003, they can fit also several (up to 5) Manpads(RB70S) used by 16th AA Reg (Australian Army) which are Lazer Guided.
Then we can add the innumerable lists of M2 0.50Cals and GPMGS and the Captain's cutlas as a last resort
These ships were ordered for the unopposed installment of a Battalion Group(1000 Troops) along with Hardware( ASLAVs, M-1A1s Tanks, M-113AS4s Trucks, Helios, Jeeps etc onto enemy land. Their other roles include Natural Disaster Relief per Aviation Roles and providing Medical , supplies and along side electrical Power at the disaster site if on coast.

Command and Control for maritime enforcement, as a Aviation one stop shop per Anti Submarine , anti Pirate and Littoral warefare, Insertion of Special Forces etc.

*There are no arresting cables on the two ships
* can operate AV-8Bs and any Allied Helio/VTOl Rotar Aircraft (CV or MV-22s), including future F-35B after mods.
*UAVs, with Nets and/or Skyhook
* Our Collins Subs aren't nuke powered, thus can't keep up with Amphib group at 21 knots 24/7. Until we have a national resolve to lower green house gases by moving from Coal to clean Nuke power (24/7 as opposed to Solar and wind), we can't support Nuke Subs that can do 28-35 Knots 24/7 being out front of the Amphid Group scaring the bad guys.
Having a 1000 plus crewed ship involved in anti Refugee Bopat hunting is alittle over the top due to costs. Work out each person gets a minium of $200 a day pay, not to mention the ship operating costs,........can be up to $270000.00 bucks a day in pay and fuel alone!
Best to deter them by more humane ways by increasing refugee passage and encourage them to do the right thing

We can't afford some of the equipment you mentioned, but they stay on the wish list for maybe one day. C-27Js and Ch-47Fs instead of CV-22Bs.
We don't have the Rolling Airframe Missile (RAMS) so we stick to what we have, CIWS 20mm and as required, RBS70s SAMs.

Now Young Dawg, I hope that you have considered the errs of your ways ( you get more with honey then smearing crund) and being nicer on this message board in future.
Did you know that the French had a Carrier in the 30's and 40's?

The Bearne

Even the Germans built on in the 30/40's. the Admiral Graf Zepplin!!

Best
Gordy (Ex Grunt) :blink:

Attached Image

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Thank you Warhawk that was a really good detailed answer I was looking for so again I thank you. Excuse my "this forum sucks" as I was frustrated. I will be respectful in future cheers :)

[Warhawk]

No Probs "CD", all in the past!

In the near future, when these ships are delivered, next month etc, they will be mated with their Australian built superstructures and fitted out.

When commissioned, there is talk that they may be based further up the coast, and within a few days steaming to mate them with the designated ADF Maritime Battalion Group, currently n0minated, 2RAR and B Sqn 3/4 Cav Reg in Townsville.

Recently in a good example, the Dutch have started using their AH-64Ds off the decks of their multirole Frigates( a cross between a FFG and a LPH).

Our ARH are already Hellfire fitted and could be used in littorial warefare( given their carbin fibre build)off the current decks of FFGs and FFHs(ANZAC). Only flotation gear needed should they ever ditch.

In this day and age, the RAAF, RAN, and Army should be viewed as a combined team that would be taylored equipped to reflect the needs of the political will and military mission to get the best outcome of the intention.

IE: Should a evacuation mission of Australian Nationals is needed to be made say from unfriendly mythical strife torn island near Fiji the following could be the senario:

* LPD sails off by sea to Numea to position itself to takeon 2RAR that were flown there to meet them by C-130Js
* ARHs are flown by C-17As from Darwin to there to load. A second duo of C-17As to load "A" Squadron MRH-90s on them to reinforce 808Sqn RANFAA MRH-90s on board the LPDs
* On the day of the landing, a flight of F/A-18Fs perform a show of force, after being refuelled on route by KC-30As, whilst 2Commandos land at the airport on MRH-90, escorted by ARHs, to secure the airport for ASLAVs that are landed by a C-17 in a Tactical landing.
* Naval and Army MRH-90s, escorted by ARHs evacuate the civs from outlying areas to the airport to be jetted back to Aus by Commercially charted airliners, whilst 2RAR cover the perimeter.
* Then assist in reverse order "our presence"
* then its back to the bar for "pats on the back and Beer"!

There's more to it then that, as we forget about the AP-3Cs patroling around to secure the sea lanes,, and the E-7 Wedgetail high above checking both the air and sea threats, along with the moving metal enemy things (tanks or AFVs) on the ground of the opposition on the island. Licky there were none this time.

Best
Gordy

Attached Image

[F/A-18 Super Bug]

Warhawk you the da man, I do ask a LOT of questions because I love keeping up to date with new hardware where as posters on here want to talk about historical A/C.. This is what I like reading, I now realise that this site is about historical war planes however I like to learn about where we are investing and how they'll operate.

I have a couple more questions if you have the time to answer:

1. Why haven't we used our Eurocopter Tiger in A-stan yet?

2. Is 4x 25mm Typhoon weapons systems enough to protect the new LHDs?

3. Basically our doctrine is to maintain peace in the Pacific region with us as the leader, have we invested wisely?

4. I know it's hard to predict but do you think if the future these new ships will be aircraft carriers with F-35Bs?

Again thanks Warhawk.

[Warhawk]

There has been a few problems with Defence Procurement in the past 10-15 years in the Aviation area, mostly with helicopters.

* Sea Sprite SH-2G(Aus)
* ARH
* MRH90

First up, we do not have a unlimited Budget to replace our aircraft in the normal cycle of new types. Decisions are made on the best advice, the product and the costs associated with through life support.

Purchase price isn't just the price of an aircraft sitting on your tarmac, then kick the tyres and fly. Though a aircraft or helio may cost say $Xs, its the cost of training(both ground and air crews), new weapons costs, documentation and infrastructure ( new hangers, runways, or ground equipment for servicing etc), midlife upgrades planned etc in its service life.

Thus when priced over the life of a aircraft, or say a ten year operating period, the individual aircraft cost will blow out to say $Ys. (add inflation or Dollar values over a ten year period).

Buying already in service or mature production aircraft, the costs are a known value and you know you are already getting an established aircraft with proven avionics and mission profiles, with current weapons. The problem there is that over "our" intended operational life of say 25 years, it may already be past its used by date after 10 years, and thus considered a wast of tax payer's money, not to mention putting RAAF/RAN or AAv crews in harm's way.

Thus we come to the first type listed above:

Sea Sprite

* it was a big ask it seems to obtain a modern anti-surface warfare twin engine helicopter with a crew of two that could meet the range and on-task requirements, with a modern radar, ESM, etc, topped out with the ability to carry a medium range anti-ship missile. Nothing was there on the available market to suit the RAN requirements; thus after a well documented procurement exercise, they went with Kaman Helicopters to make a SH-2G with a new radar, flight control management, and plug and play databus/open architecture system. RNZAF went with 5 newbuilt SH-2G(NZ) aircraft based on the old analog computer/weapons and flight systems, while we (RAN) purchased 11 second hand ex-USN SH-2F ( plus more reserve airframes) to be re-manufactured into "as new" SH-2G(Aus) with the latest new generation digital flight controls and computers, radars etc, and to be able to carry a drop tank and a Penguin AS Missile.( We actually bought some 104 or more missiles before the first one was accepted). As history shows us, it couldn't fly safe so the project was canned in 2007. (As stated from one source, with just one missile attached, it was unstable to fly, and needed to carry two ASMs to balance the airframe!, but how do you fire just one and then not have the original problem?) . So , the RANFAA solved the problem by having the S-70C fleet of 12 active and 4 stored/rotated out of storage to increase to the full 16 active fleet and patiently wait the day when they could order a new chopper to replace all in 2011

ARH and MRH-90

*ARH choice was over the established AH-64D (sans MM radar). The plan was to field it by 2008. Why not? Due to partner Nations (Germany and France) its development slowed, and in effect, we became the defacto lead Service introducing it! Same thing has happened with the MRH-90. We have by deflaut have the most delivered airframes, but also the longest supply train from the manufacture which has proven to be a real pain.

The ARH and MRH-90 have not reached full operational service as of this date. Therefore they cannot deploy.

The ARH Tiger was up to a few weeks ago, had a repeating cockpit fume problem, since traced, but they still lack suitable night formation light(Black lights) to be used in theatre.

Since being the first customer after Germany and France, Spain has ordered them. Only three, plus one replacement have been in the Ghan, and operated well due to the fact that they had enough parts( perhaps all held stocks that were available from Eurocopter Warehouses). Meanwhile, the AAv hasn't been able to get all of their parts when needed.Hopefully in 5-6 months the ARH will acheieve full operational level. Some three- fours years late.

The MRH-90 (Aust standard NH-90) is a brilliant chopper, but again, we have become the defacto lead service. Missed design problems have surfaced from weak cargo floors, reduced clearance of aircraft underside( punchuring), RR engine problems and in both types flight management systems, waiting on baseline 3 flight software to be installed and retrofitted to the first 12 delivered.

Since first ordered, they are undergoing fittment of heavier floors and sand filters( ARH included), not in the original contract
The Army woke up and ordered more Chinooks, maintained their S-70A9s in the short term, to ensure the grunts continued getting frequent flyer points

Had we gone AH-64D and UH-60M instead of these two aircraft, they would have been in service and war fighting some four years ago.Sweden is an example who ordered NH-90 type helios, but have ordered UH-60Ms for the Ghan whilst still waiting for the NH-90s arriving in full operational standard out in 2022!! The 15 UH-60Ms ordered go to the Ghan next year. Not bad? two years from being ordered to their use!

Which leaves the RANFAA, who have learnt their lesson from the SH-2G(Aus) debacle, and went this time for the SH-60R Romeo. A modern aircraft the fits all requirements, and will be delivered as a standard US Navy Aircraft earlier then what the contract stated, late 2013, not 2014 and delivered completely by 2016.

They will be modified in Australia during their first service to incorporate Aus spec equipment , and oddly enough, to delete some American spec equipment.
Given the number , 24, it may may sense to visit the ownership of 6 MRH-90s and replace those with SH-60Ss for vertsup, and to reduce engine types to "uno" ala "one type" on board the LPDs or FFHs or AWDs.

There's a lesson in there for all programs.

Don't short budget a replacement that may result in the buyer trying to get the best promised ability, rather then a shorter risk adversed proven system that will save you money over two airframe lives!!

The closest I've been and snapped ,to a Sea Sprite: 2004 Amberley


Best
Gordy

Attached Image