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Sea Fury Losses In Korea

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Joe Barr	Posted: Jun 21 2015, 01:44 AM
GAF Mirage III (A3) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 137 Member No.: 56 Joined: 5-November 05	I am currently working on the histories of RAN Sea Furies in the hope of updating our site and have struck some conflicting information. Any help or confirmation would be much appreciated. VX764 In our web site it is stated that Sea Fury VX764 was piloted by LT CDR Bowles when hit by AA fire over Korea on 17.12.51, that he baled out and was rescued by a junk before being landed on an island for pick-up by helicopter. However! WE795 Air Britain's "Fleet Air Arm Fixed-Wing Aircraft since 1946" (which has much more detail on all the RAN Sea Furies than our site) states that Bowles was flying Sea Fury WE795 and that VX764 was being flown by SUB LT Smith when it was hit by flak on 7.12.51 and he made a wheels up landing on Paengyong-do. WE679 Our version states that Smith was hit in WE679 on 7.12.51. Now we have a third aircraft involved which the Air Britain book suggests was hit by flak north of Chinnampo on 13.12.51 while being flown by LT P.B. Cooper who was rescued by a US helicopter WE797 Our version states that Cooper was shot down on 13.12.51 in WE797 while the Air Britain book only states that this aircraft was loaned to 805 Sqn (from ARS Iwakuni) as "106/K" on 30.10.51 and was 'written off due to enemy action on 1.2.52. I seem to remember many years ago becoming confused by records of losses in Korea and obviously the confusion continues. Living in country WA and having passed most of my books to the FAA Museum when we moved here, I don't have easy access to publications or original records any more. My earlier records are less detailed so are not much help. Can anyone help to sort out this conundrum? Joe

Luig

Posted: Jun 21 2015, 07:08 AM

FA-18F Super Hornet (A44)

Group: ADF Serials Team
Posts: 2,011
Member No.: 80
Joined: 8-March 06

Joe, Have you tried corresponding with FAAM Fleet Air Arm Museum at NAS Nowra? You can e-mail them for a 'relatively' quick response - I guess depending on the knowledge held there and how easy it may be to find.

As I recall most of the written history of 805 Squadron was chucked over board from HMAS Sydney by a 'recalcitrant' sailor at the end of the war, in a port in Japan/Korea. My recollection of this 'fact' is very hazy as you can see. This probably explains the confusion about 'facts' subsequently.

I'll see what I can dig out but I have not concentrated really on anything other than the A4G.

OK - my memory is not so good - ONLY PHOTOS were tossed overboard:

Korea: Naval air Posted on Monday 10 August, 2009
Operation Strangle: Naval aviation in Korea. by Fred Lane
Paper presented at the Aviation Historical Society of Australia, Sydney, 7 July 2004.

QUOTE

"...Because so few action photographs were ever published, it may be assumed by some that Sydney‘s aircraft rarely left the ship. Unfortunately, a mentally ill senior photography sailor ditched nearly all of Sydney’s camera gun and other film records into Hong Kong Harbour by after being told to clean up his section for Captain’s Rounds in February 1952. Only private snapshots and those few photographs sent on ahead remain...."

A quote about shoot down / rescue but light on aircraft details....

QUOTE

"...Sydney’s SBLT Ian MacMillan crash-landed his Firefly in the Chaeryongang Waterways area on 26 October 1951 after being hit by AA fire. MacMillan and his observer, Hank Hancox, came under heavy automatic weapons fire from soldiers in the area. The enemy were initially kept at bay by orbiting RAN Fireflies and Sea Furies, but they were recalled when RAAF Meteors, tasked by JOC, arrived. Following hand signal directions from the Air Group Commander, who happened to be flying that day, the two Sea Furies with the best fuel states elected to suffer selective “radio failure” and failed to head the recall message, which was fortunate, because the Meteors had to leave some 20 minutes before the helicopter arrived.

The Sea Furies protected the pair until Sydney’s borrowed USN helicopter, piloted by USN CPO A.K. Babbitt, performed the longest helicopter rescue transit over enemy territory in the Korean War, courtesy of a convenient 25-30 knot tail wind on the long inbound leg. The helicopter and the Sea Furies landed safely near Seoul with all fuel gauges reading less than zero. This operation was successful in part because MacMillan and Hancox used RAN-introduced fluorescent panels to communicate with the RESCAP aircraft and to direct supporting fire towards enemy machine guns and other fire....

QUOTE

"...RAN Innovations
The RAN was responsible for a number of innovations in Korea. These included red and yellow fluorescent panels for RESCAP communications, worn as scarves. These were subsequently adopted by the USAF. Unlike the USN and many RN aircrew, all RAN aircrew trained thoroughly in Close Support, Naval Gunfire Support, Artillery Spotting and Photo Reconnaissance. Sydney was also the first to apply the seemingly simple “Lavender Line”, named after Sydney’s Flight Deck Officer. This line, painted on the flight deck, contributed to Sydney being the first carrier not to taxi an aircraft overboard from the forward deck park. Because of tighter drills, Sydney‘s single catapult launch rate was frequently as good as if not better than the twin-catapult USN carriers. Its landing rate was also usually better, but that was probably more a function of operating on a shorter deck than anything else...."

http://www.navalofficer.com.au/korea-nav-av1/

This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 21 2015, 07:53 AM

Warhawk	Posted: Jun 21 2015, 02:53 PM
ADF Serials Research Co-ord Group: ADF Serials Admin Posts: 1,986 Member No.: 82 Joined: 9-March 06	Even Ships Logs/diaries Agency number CA 2911 Title HMAS SYDNEY [III] Date range 16 Dec 1948 - 12 Nov 1973 Series recorded by this agency Series Organisation controlling 16 Dec 1948 - 12 Nov 1973 Off subject,... Title Sea Fury and Firefly replacements for SYDNEY [21 pages] Contents date range 1950 - 1950 Series number MP151/1 Click to see which government agency or person created this item. Control symbol 415/201/2464 Citation NAA: MP151/1, 415/201/2464 Item barcode 334676 Location Melbourne Access status Open Date of decision 16 Jun 1986 Added Windy's listing from 2000 below: Attached Image

Joe Barr	Posted: Jun 22 2015, 10:08 PM
GAF Mirage III (A3) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 137 Member No.: 56 Joined: 5-November 05	Thanks gentlemen. I'll have a look at those sources. I wonder what sources Windy used to collect his information. The level of detail in Ray Sturtivant et al's book indicates they must have had good sources too. Joe

Luig	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 09:19 AM
FA-18F Super Hornet (A44) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 2,011 Member No.: 80 Joined: 8-March 06	Thanks for the image post 'Warhawk' - it did not appear earlier (on my computer anyway)? And Joe I forgot to add to earlier post that the article cited makes clear how 'sources' can be 'problematic'. The PDF below has been made from the 'Warhawk' graphic and then OCRed so that the text is available. However it needs to be 'corrected' for OCR errors so copy / paste into a text editor and compare text with graphic/PDF image. I'll get around to correcting any OCR errors and making another 'corrected PDF' sometime soon - so it will be posted here in another message. In Navy slang it will be 'tiddlied up' (made nice) - the new PDF version that is. This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 23 2015, 09:33 AM Attached File ( Number of downloads: 460 ) RAN_FAA_Losses_Korean_War_OCR_Needs_Proof_Reading.pdf

Joe Barr	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 11:46 AM
GAF Mirage III (A3) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 137 Member No.: 56 Joined: 5-November 05	Small problem, Luigi! I clicked the link and got a load of gibberish (presumably code) which still appears as such in a Text Editor. Any thoughts? Joe

Luig	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 03:01 PM
FA-18F Super Hornet (A44) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 2,011 Member No.: 80 Joined: 8-March 06	Yep - my thot would be use the most up to date Adobe Reader suitable for your operating system after firstly downloading the PDF to your computer - any application NOT ADOBE is going to have troubles - anyhoo you now have all the proofread text - homogonized - except I have not double checked the aircraft NUMBER details - I'll do that later. Go here for some goodly Adobe Readers: http://get.adobe.com/reader/otherversions/ Meanwhile here is my corrected text (some of the squadron designations are incorrect in the graphic - btw I have not checked aircraft details yet - but anyway...). RAN SEA FURIES IN KOREA 1951-1952 No. SERNO. SIDE No. SQDN REMARKS 01. VX724 805 Barrier 27 Nov 51, 24 Jan 52 hit crane 02. VX726 808 10 Oct 51 off to starboard hit crane 03. VX727 805 04. VX728 103/K 805 10 Oct 1951 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Knapstein shot down 05. VX729 132/K 808 06. VX730 109/K 805 Damaged 19 Sep 1951 & 21 Oct 1951 07. VX742 Loaned to 21 CAG by Royal Navy 08. VX749 808 26 Oct 51 No.2 Barrier 09. VX751 106/K 805 10. VX755 808 11. VX759 808 12. VX760 808 13. VX761 131/K 808 Ditched by SBLT(P) Webster, RAN from HMAS SYDNEY II Sep 1951 14. VX762 808 Damaged 10 Oct I951 15. VX763 16. VX764 105/K 805 17 Dec 1951 Lost Korea LCDR(P) Bowles bailed out 17. WE673 135/K 808 Damaged 18 SEP 1951 & 14 Oct 1951 18. WE674 808 05 Nov 1951 Lost Korea LEUT(P) Clarkson killed 19. WE676 138/K 808 Barrier 18 Jan 1952 20. WE677 808 11 Dec 51 Barrier 21. WE678 808 22. WE679 808 07 Dec 1951 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Smith, RN shot down 23. WE686 805 02 Jan 1952 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Coleman missing 24. WE725 Loaned to 21CAG by ROYAL NAVY 25. WE786 Loaned to 21CAG by ROYAL NAVY 26. WE788 27. WE790 105/K 805 Loaned to 21CAG by ROYAL NAVY 28. WE791 805 29. WE794 30. WE795 805 07 Dec 1951 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Sinclair killed 31. WE796 105/K 805 25 Oct 1951 Lost Korea LEUT(P) Wheatley shot down 32. WE797 106/K 805 13 Dec 1951 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Cooper shot down 33. WE799 105/K 805 34. WE805 103/K 805 Loaned to 21CAG by Royal Navy 35. WE590 36. WF591 808 05 Jan 52 Barrier 37. WF592 132/K 808 Returned to RNAS Sembawang 14 Feb 1952 38. WF593 808 Note A. Sea Furies VX742, WE725, WE786 , WE790 and WF805 were all returned to the Royal Navy in Japan when HMAS SYDNEY left the Korean War theatre in January 1952 B. Korean losses: 1. 25 OCT 1951 - LEUT(P) Col Wheatley of 808 Squadron ditched Sea Fury WE796 22 miles west of Chinnampo. Rescued by helicopter 2. 26 OCT 1951 - SBLT(P) N. Knapstein of 808 Squadron crash landed his Sea Fury VX728 on south bank of Han River. Rescued by boat from HMS AMETHYST 3. 05 NOV 1951 - LEUT(P) Keith Clarkson, senior pilot of 805 squadron was shot down in Sea Fury WE674 and killed near Han River. 4. 07 DEC 1951 - SBLT(P) Smith, RN was hit by gunfire and force landed wheels up his Sea Fury WE679 on the beach at Paengyong-Do 5. 07 DEC 1951 - SBLT(P) R.R. Sinclair, RAN of 805 squadron hit by flak north west of Chinnampo attempted to bail out of Sea Fury WE795. His body hit the aircraft tail and he was killed. Body recovered and he was buried at sea 6. 13 DEC 1951 - LEUT(P) P. B. Cooper, RAN of 808 Squadron baled out from Sea Fury WE797 and was rescued by a United States helicopter from Paengyong-Do 7. 13 DEC 1951 - The Commanding Officer of 805 Squadron, LCDR(P) W. G. Bowles was shot down near Ongjin and bailed out from his Sea Fury VX764. He was rescued by a friendly Junk 8. 02 JAN 1952 - SBLT(P) R. Coleman, RAN of 805 Squadron became separated from his leader in poor weather. No trace of him or his aircraft Sea Fury WE686 was found This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 23 2015, 05:49 PM

davesoda	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 04:57 PM
Gloster Meteor (A77) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 65 Member No.: 404 Joined: 30-May 07	One of the volunteers at the museum Les's Brother is still missing in Korea. WE686 805 02 Jan 1952 Lost Korea SBLT(P) Coleman missing

Luig	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 05:18 PM
FA-18F Super Hornet (A44) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 2,011 Member No.: 80 Joined: 8-March 06	Perhaps lost in cloud over water became disorientated to spin into water? Just my guess. Otherwise attached is the 'tiddly' PDF of the material in the graphic. Had trouble making the PDF smaller than allowed file size so it will appear later.... Here it is attached as a .GIF graphic. [CORRECTED the serial number] This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 23 2015, 05:52 PM Attached Image

Luig	Posted: Jun 23 2015, 05:32 PM
FA-18F Super Hornet (A44) Group: ADF Serials Team Posts: 2,011 Member No.: 80 Joined: 8-March 06	NOW PDF with is text searchable (OCR) readable attached (same as .GIF above) Corrected PDF attached now This post has been edited by Luig on Jun 23 2015, 05:55 PM Attached File ( Number of downloads: 705 ) RAN_FAA_Losses_Korean_War_TABLE_PRN_portrait_BWocr.pdf

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