Scrapping Of Awm Aircraft In 1950s

Can't remember where I got this link but the discussion after the photo may be of interest to some.

Apologies if you have seen it all before.

www.warbirdz.net/phpBB2/showthread.php?t=2218&highlight=beaufort

Joe

Joe,

Interesting mate, as the this is the Japanese Sally we found records on not so long ago. The trail mentions the sally had active service over Darwin, but I wonder if anyone knows its ID.

The information I have is that the Beaufort and Sally were scrapped in Queanbeyan. I dont have an exact date or name of the scrap dealer.

I am not a member of this forum are you?? perhaps someone knws the answer to what we need, at least now we have an image! I didnt know why the aircraft came into disrepair but we have had that answered now too...

I came accross Sqn A50 record sheets mentioing the Sally's delivery to Australia and we had the Sally's RAAF status card for some time (which Gordy remembered and provided). this helps complete the picture.

thanks...

Gordy/Gordon, have a good read guys and see what else I might have missed...

When I was at Fairbairn in 63, in the kindergarten was a bare Jap fusalage of a light transport. Looked about the size of a Lockheed 12. It too was flown to at least as far as the RAAF got hold of it, but not perhaps to Australia.

I believe that it in storage but I do believe that it is far from complete.

Regards

Col

Sorry, Darren, not a member of that group but looking through their messages there may be some interesting material from time to time.

Joe

this one certainly filled in a couple of blanks. I should buy that book from the awm if its still available..

Hi Guys,

If you haven't already seen them, there are a number of images on the AWM database of the 'Sally' at Laverton after being flown back. There are also additional photos after repainting in Canberra. The plane was nicknamed 'Tokyo Rose' by the crew returning her to Australia.

The other plane mentioned at Canberra in 63 is probably the Tachikawa 54 flown in for a Surrender Ceremony by General Baba at Labuan. Photos of this exist on the AWM site too. I think the fuselage is in storage in the AWM

Cheers

Michael

This post has been edited by Michael Louey on Oct 29 2007, 02:03 PM

Had a read of the forum and it was very interesting.

Yes Darren, that is our Sally. I'll see if I can id the unit from the photo which might lead us back toa range of serials. The other issue is the number of aircraft scrapped. The Oscar, Hampden (used by several RAAF sqns in Europe), the Bf 109, and the Tachikawa Ki-54 Hickory (thanks Michael). With the exception of the Bf 109 how rare are the rest of the aircraft!?. Extremely!!

I'll have a look for the book too Darren. Must have a look at those photos too.

Gordon

Well, after a bit of a review of all the available AWM photos and captions and checking my Putnam 'Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War' (Which contains a new photo of the Ki 21 supplied by Frank Smith) a reasonable history of this aircraft can be pieced together.

The plane is a Mitsubishi Ki-21-IIa probably of the Headquarters Flight of the 3rd Kokugan (Ref Putnam, pg 160).

It was surrendered to the Allies around Oct 1945 at Moratai carrying Lieutenant-General Ichi, Supreme Commander of the Japanese forces in the Celebes (Ref AWM P02270.025, OG3743, P03033.004, P03033.005).

At some stage the plane appears to have transitted to Labuan, North Borneo. (Ref OG3743)

The plane was flown out from Labuan to Laverton on 1 Feb 1946 and had arrived at Laverton by 8 Feb 1946. The crew were:

Flt Lt Mal Baker (Captain) Test Pilot at No 81 Wing RAAF Labuan,
Warrant Off Fred Pitts, Flt Lt Dai walthurst DFC (Navigator), Flt Sgt Derrick Hosking, LAC Norm Hill, LAC Arthur Barr. (AWM OG3743).

The plane is reputed to have made 5 raids on Darwin.

The plane ended up at the AWM collection in Nov 1954 (AWM P04425.005) and was at RAAF Fairbairn in 1955 (P02270.023, P02270.024).

The plane was reported to be scrapped in the1960's (AWM 92948.096)

There are numerous photos on the AWM site - search for 'Sally' and Ki.21.

Some of the information is subject to confirmation - i.e linking the photos of the Ki.21's in the different photos, but if the AWM summaries are taken on face value, the above history seems to be reasonably complete.

The photos do show the plane in slightly different finish, but the Japanese insignia on the fin appears constant throughout. The original finish was typical 'Surrender' markings - Whitewash over the original camouflage and Green crosses. The whitewash has worn down by the time of the flight to Australia. The photos in Canberra show Hinomarus and no whitewash but still show the Japanese Insignia on the tail and the 'Tokyo Rose' logo on the nose. It is likely it was repainted at this stage, except for the insignia and maybe the logo, unless the whitewash was a temporary finish which had been removed (unlikely, based on the restoration processes active at the AWM in this era - note the repainted Me 262).

Cheers

Michael

This post has been edited by Michael Louey on Oct 30 2007, 10:57 PM

I saw this aircraft in storage at Point Cook in 82/83.

GPH

I'm sure I have seen a picture of this Jap transport in a magazine, possibly Flightpath. I don't have the magazines anymore but if someone else does it may pay to look through them carefully.

The Hickory fuselage was recovered from the Fairbairn Kindergaten playground by the RAAF Museum in the early 1980's by W/O Bob Gould, and stored at Point Cook until very recently when it was handed back to the AWM.

I am not aware of a Bf109 being scrapped, instead I think it was sold and became the one in the Syd Marshall collection, later impounded in a failed export attempt and transferred to the AWM.

I also understand the former Syd Marshall Oscar was also disposed of by the AWM (still "confused" as to how that aircraft qualified for an export permit?)

I understand a Sally, Beaufort, Anson, Hampton and the first Wirraway (A20-3) were all scrapped by the AWM.

The photo on the Warbirdz site was posted by Glenn Alderton, the site administrator, it is an open forum, anyone can join and post.

I have seen the photo elsewhere and I believe the photo is taken at Laverton where the aircraft were originally stored.

JDK, another forum member posted this interesting extract from the AWM official history:[QUOTE]To reduce pressure on storage space McGrath sought
approval from the Board to sell off parts of the collection,
as Bean had done following his survey, but McGrath's disposal
did not appear to be based on a thorough study of the collection
as Bean's had been. In 1953, for example, on the advice of
Air Vice Marshal (Sir) John McCauley, Air Officer
Commanding, Eastern Area, RAAF, the Board agreed to the
disposal of Anson, Beaufort, Wirraway, Hampden and Oscar
aircraft because there was 'little likelihood of any space ever
becoming available for their display' and, in any case, the
Board believed they were 'of little interest'. It was unlikely
that the Board recalled Treloar's dictum that the Memorial
gave secondary place, only, to technological exhibits to
concentrate on the history of Australia's forces but, without
some such statement of principle, it is hard to explain these
disposals. A thorough study of the aircraft collection would
show that most of the Memorial's aircraft were reserved for
the Memorial by the Air Force rather than actively collected
by the Memorial. In a sense, therefore, the Memorial had less
interest in these items, than, say, the more personal treasures
individually collected by Memorial staff. Most of the aircraft
had not physically come into the Memorial's care but had
remained in store on RAAF bases; several, unable to be
accommodated in hangars, were known to be deteriorating-
Disposal presented an easy way of solving a complex
problem.

But the sale of these aircraft represented a lost opportunity
for the Memorial. The Memorial's Wirraway, for example
was the first one of this type of aircraft to be manufactured
in Australia and, thrown into battle against the vastly superior
Japanese Zeros, the Wirraway stood for Australian courage
and determination. After this initial purge, the Memorial
retained among its collection two aircraft, a Beaufort and a
Japanese 'Sally'. The Beaufort had flown over 100 missions
with the RAAF and the 'Sally' had flown operational missions
over Darwin. The Board had hoped that these aircraft could
be displayed and they were moved to the Duntroon store where
they were rendered unfit for display by 'vandalism and
exposure to the weather'. In 1956, therefore, the Board also
approved their disposal. As with the other aircraft, no effort
was made to find buyers who might wish to restore and display
them; both were to be sold to scrap merchants. The Minister,
(Sir) Alien Fairhall, whose approval was needed for disposal,
asked his Secretary whether the vandalism and exposure might
have been avoided and whether 'we shall not expose ourselves
to criticism... as I imagine the Japanese aircraft is not
replaceable'. McGrath blamed the RAAF for the damage to
the aircraft, a sad reflection on security at the RAAF Base
at Fairbairn, and advised the Minister that the aircraft could
not be restored. Fairhall then approved their disposal.

A Sydney scrap dealer, T. Carr & Co., offered £250, each,
for the aircraft, but before Carr's employees could begin work
on dismantling the planes, soldiers at Duntroon removed a
considerable quantity of metal from them, causing Carr's to
seek a discount of £300 on their bill. McGrath, conceding
that Carr's original quote 'seemed somewhat high for aircraft
being sold as scrap', recommended acceptance of a lesser
amount and eventually the Memorial received £265 for both
aircraft. Police charged the soldiers responsible for removing
metal from Duntroon but they argued that they thought the
metal had no value as Memorial staff had placed the planes
in a garbage dump at Duntroon and had told the soldiers
that 'the planes were just rubbish and of no use to anybody'.
The magistrate dismissed the charges and made no comment
on the Memorial's lax control over its collection.

In 1963 the Board considered the fate of two German aircraft,
a Messerschmitt ME 109 and a Rocket ME 163. Informed
that there was already a Messerschmitt 262 on display in
Aircraft Hall, the Board was also told that 'there is no
significant interest in either of these aircraft other than that
they were types used by the enemy, and it is unlikely that
they will ever be required for exhibition in the Memorial'.
The Board agreed to their disposal and asked that the price
be set by the Department of Civil Aviation. The Department
of Air advised that the 'maximum scrap value' of the ME
109 would be £250 but as the Memorial's purchaser refused
to go beyond £100 for this aircraft (which was in mint
condition because it had never been flown) the Board agreed
to sell it for the lower price. Staff did not attempt, apparently,
to test the worth of the aircraft on the international market.[/QUOTE]

regards

Mark Pilkington

Mark is correct about the history of the AWM Me 190G. This is a summary of its known history recorded against photo P05491.001 from the AWM database:

A German Messerschmitt Bf 109G-6 (Werknummer [serial number] 163824), single engined fighter, on public display at Bankstown airport, New South Wales (NSW). This aircraft was captured by the allied forces towards the end of the Second World War and in 1946 it was located at an RAF Maintenance Unit, in Brize Norton, Oxfordshire, United Kingdom (UK). Soon after, this aircraft (and a rocket powered Messerschmitt 163 Komet) were sent to Australia, but no information or documentation accompanied either aircraft. It was presumed that they were a gift from Britain in recognition to Australia's contribution to the air war in Europe during the Second World War. Upon arrival in Australia this aircraft was stored (still crated, for at least eight years) at RAAF Laverton, Victoria, and was transferred and stored at RAAF Tocumwal for a further year until it was finally transferred to the Australian War Memorial (AWM) in 1955. In 1963 it was sold by the AWM to a private vendor, who subsequently re-sold it to Marshall Airways at Bankstown airport, where it was part of an open air display (pictured here) with other aircraft for some years. Later, the aircraft was sold to a private aircraft collector in the United Kingdom (UK) for a substantial sum and in 1979, whilst the new owner attempted to export the aircraft from Australia to the UK, the aircraft was impounded and confiscated by Australian Customs because of recent Australian legislation governing the export of historic aircraft and also, because the aircraft was fraudulently labelled as Mustang aircraft parts. During the ensuing court case to have the aircraft released to the UK it was stored at No 2 Stores Depot, RAAF, Regents Park, NSW. After a successful judgement, the AWM reacquired the aircraft in 1988 where it has remained as part of the National Collection ever since. The wartime service history of this aircraft is fairly hazy and nothing conclusive is known. However unconfirmed reports state that it was probably manufactured in April 1944 and was damaged in May and again later in 1944 during a ferry flight. A small painted inscription below the canopy indicates that it was refurbished in December 1944 (possibly at Munster) with the starboard wing and the fuselage stern frame being replaced. Non standard fuselage cowls possibly indicate a change of engine type. Somewhere between 33,000 and 35,000 Me Bf 109s of all types were produced by Nazi Germany and despite this aircraft's vague origins, it is believed to be the most complete example of the dozen or so still in existence around the world. It is probably the only surviving example still wearing the original paintwork which was applied by the Luftwaffe in 1944.

So, it appears more by good luck than good management that the AWM have got back their original plane and in as close to original condition as well (escaping the 60's restoration craze).

Of interest is that there was another Messerschmitt 109 in Australia that was scrapped. This was a Bf 109E-4 which was sent around the country on a War Loans tour. There are photos somewhere in Flightpath as well as other publications. The AHSA journal has a photo of the final fate of this airframe - fuselage skeleton only, ready to be scrapped.

This post has been edited by Michael Louey on Nov 2 2007, 10:41 PM

Thank you Mark and thank you Michael, now I know why over the last two weeks a few guys went to some considerable effort to save the last two Sea Venoms that flew in RAN service. These "last ladies standing" were destined for the smelter, but save them we did.

When will the powers that control military assets realise that they do not have the authority to arbitarily destroy military airframes? At all times while in military care, military airframes belong to the taxpayer and they should be offered back to the taxpayer at the end of their useful life in the service. The routine destruction currently practiced by the ADF is no different to the vandalism mentioned in Mark's article.

I believe that we are only tempory custodians of history, held in trust for future generations. Therefore we do not have the right to decree that a certain aircraft is "of little interest" now and will never become interesting in time. Destruction, just to satisfy an expedient such as "a lack of storage space" borders on the criminal.

How does our generation, just one removed from those that ordered the atrocity, feel about the destruction of the war relics stockpiled at Laverton, Oakey etc etc?

Time for a change of attitude.

GPH :angry:

I can confirm the insignia of the Ki-21 Sally is from 3rd Kokugan, from the tail code.

Gordon

Go GPH! Good luck with your sterling endeavours.

Its not just the Military or Navy and the FAA museum in the case of the venoms... with the sally it was the AWM... thats bad mate...

Two weekends worth of effort a little money and the venoms were saved...

One of the great things in my life, was the chance to become very good friends of Harold and Allan Thomas.

Men who had devoted most of their life, and I also suspect most of their money, to saving aircraft for us to enjoy.

Every conversation with them was an interesty foray into the things that are near and dear to us all. I remember one day Harold asking me if I could own one of the sircraft in his collection, which one I could have, I stated without hestitation the Wirraway. He said why, and I said it is the start of our aviation manufacturing business and should always be a part of our hertitage.

Whilst it is good to see so many aircraft being saved, but it is always sad to think of the planes which were chucked away, mainly because I suspect of lack of understanding played some of the part they play in history.

However some of the aircraft, destroyed by those who should have known better in Australia, today aircraft like the Hamdem just do not exist. Same with Axis airplanes which survive today in such small numbers, that I cannot understand what people must have been thinking at the time.

We had aircraft that by 1960 should have been saved, but were not like the Lincoln, B24 Liberator (yes there was one at the school of radio that could have been saved) Washingtons, just gone like they never existed.

As my friend Harold used to say, its hard work, hard money and a life time of devotion which saves these aircraft, and when you do save them, you have to keep them so they do not rot way.

God bless you Harold and others like you, so that my grand children and their childen, will be able to see the aircraft that their Pop flew in.

Col

This post has been edited by herkman on Nov 4 2007, 08:44 PM

Well, I mentioned some of this information on this thread for a related question on the Australian Modeller's International site (AMI) and one of the members - Roger Lambert had access to the status card for the AWM Hampden. Here are the details he posted:

[I]Type: HAMPDEN
No: AE384
Received From: UK
Engine Fitted: PEGASUS XVIII

Date: 31.5.45
Details: a/c held 1CRD Werribee to be despatched to Canberra for Australian War Memorial
Authority: Q0176 180/2/2 Enc 47A

Date: 5.10.49
Details: E24/19 storage report from Canberra states cased and held under Cat "D" storage as museum exhibit.
Authority: Q1496

Date: 15.11.49
Details: a/c now held to account by RAAF Canberra merely held in storage there for Aust War Memorial.
Authority: DWA's A86177 Enc 130/3 180/2/2

Date: 8.3.50
Details: Issued to Aust War Memorial (stored only at Canberra)
Authority: Q1178

HAMPDEN AE384 Aust War Memorial 9588/186072 6221/151875

So there you go. Up until March 1950, we had our very own Hampden here in Australia. Was it scrapped as unwanted as we believe? My information says yes it was scrapped without ever being erected.[/I]

So this supplies some of the questions asked in the original Warbird forum that started off this thread.

Cheers

Michael

Remember all those Gannets and Venoms parked down near the bomb dump in the 70s? :(

Graham, Only saw them from a distance but by all reports they were not in good shape but I guess that is a relative assessment.

Do not forget all the sea fury's at schoefield in 1957. All I believe were flown in

Regards

Col

What a crime against aviation history!

Gordon

Perhaps we should lobby for this crime to be recognised in legislation!

:blink:


BC

I agree wholeheartedly!!

Who do we lobby? <_<

I think it is government policy, introduced by Malcolm F I believe, that at least one of every aircraft has to go to Navy,Army and Air Force museums.

That is why we have a P2V5F and a P2V7

And a C130A and C130E

Be interesting to see if we get a H model.

Can anyone throw any information on what legistation was passed, we might need to tell Kevin.

I think from an Air Force point of view, they try to find the most historic and ship it to Point Cook.

Regards

Col

It will be helpful perhaps when and if the RNZAF former RAN Skyhawks become available. Their sale to anyone looks remote after all these years (7).

How about someone with some more skill in that area than I create a form letter people who read this topic can send off... it can be edited or used in the form it is provided.

Idea's and contacts on who to get it to could be handy as well...

I would be happy to compose some words if folks would like to feed me their thoughts.

I'm sure you know how we would feel about the subject from posts here mate... think of the venoms and I would image you could get it in one...

Have u come up with anything yet GPH?

Gordon

Sorry mate I've been a bit busy. Got a few thoughts on the subject, must find time to write them down. May I call on you to do some editing etc?

GPH

You may indeed my friend.

Have a great Christmas and I'll catch u in the new year when we turn 10.

Gordon :D