Bundaberg, Qld

[ABMM]

Hi there,

I thought I'd start off my ADF Serials Message Board posting career with a curly question. I'm not sure exactly what I am looking for here as per types, etc. so I thought I'd just take the scattergun route.

I am seeking information on any RAAF, NEI or USAAF fighter aircraft which were damaged at Bundaberg during WWII. The aircraft in question was apparently a P40 but I cannot verify that. The aircraft was a single engine monoplane described specifically as a fighter. To further muddy the waters, the a/c in question may have been converted to components at RAAF Bundaberg but was not subsequently sent to an AD for scrapping.

Any assistance appreciated and may help solve a 65 year old mystery.

[herkman]

Come on mate, tell the full story.

Whilst I have some of the info. it would be better coming from you.

You may care to elaborate on the comment that the Bundaberg Council, has indicated a total lack of interest in the matter.

Col

[Warhawk]

Lads,

Can we perhaps nail it perhaps down further to a year or a location,.Ie at Bundaberg or close by?

You must remember what RAAF units that were around there at the time, not to mention the number of transits through that area from 1941 to 1946!

From Wacketts ,Wirraways,Tiger Moths to Spitfires , Airacobras, Thunderbolts and P-40s, you 'll get the idea that there's alot.


As Herkman says" Come on mate, tell the full story"

Gordy :)

[ABMM]

Ok Col, at the risk of sounding like one of the lunatic fringe out there.

What we have at Bundaberg is one complete Allied single engined monoplane as well as one or two disassembled aircraft of unknown origin sitting in storage UNDER (that's right) the Bundaberg airport. ABMM and its predecessor the (Australian Bunker Project) has been in contact with the local council about this issue for the best part of a decade due to our concerns about hazardous materials and weapons believed to exist onsite, but it wasn't until the Wide Bay Airshow in August 2007 that we were able to finally get onsite and run a series of ground penetrating radar surveys over the area of interest that the local council sat up and listened.

We are currently in negotiations with the council to have the site opened and exploited. By exploited, we specifically mean the site made safe, any nasties removed and the site converted to a community-based museum for the people of Bundaberg with the aircraft components, equipment and vehicles displayed in situ and as found.

I'd pay to see that.

There are no plans to sell off any of the equipment, weapons, vehicles or aircraft components. We will recoup the $250k or so we have spent proving the site exists through media royalties. We aren't cowboys.

So there it is in a nutshell.

We know EXACTLY where the site is from expert interpretation of aerial imagery spanning 1936 to present, we have sufficient evidence prove a massive anomaly onsite as well as interesting, but ultimately circumstantial evidentiary reports from four people who have been inside the facility between 1960 and 1998.

I am trying to determine which aircraft may be held onsite, hence my original question.

[herkman]

There guys is that not a lot more interesting.

I have been involved with guys from a distance since they started.

Bubdaberg Council, a bunch of stick in the muds, not understanding about the history under their feet. Far more important IT IS OUR HISTORY NOT THEIRS.

Regards

Col

[herkman]

The story is long and involved, is based upon sworn statements, made by two people who gained access through an air vent of some type.

It is alleged that there were Bren and Owen guns, plus a large stack of compatable
rounds. The air vent was alleged to be booby trapped.

There also is alleged to be a P40 plus a part dismantled Zero with USA marking and a JEEP. Plus a load of bombs.

There are further statements made, which appear to point the finger at post war involvement, the story goes on for many pages. I can print it up from the site which like ours requires registration but you too could look at if you register from ADF Serials.

On first glance it looks like a hoax, but the story of a Zero could be true as the serial quoted is within 1 of the USAAF assigned nunbers to Zero's.

The P40 could be USAAF and could come from the same source which is quoted as being Eagles Field.

I am mindfull of the story told to me by Harold Thomas, who missed out on a BMW and Benz aero engines after the war stored in a scrap yard. He finally went there one day to be given photos, they had been bought for overseas scrap the month before.

Strange things can happen, will be interesting to see what comes out.

Regards

Col

This post has been edited by herkman on Dec 7 2007, 09:47 PM

[penders]

Wow...thats awesome, cant wait to see what comes out of all this.

[ABMM]

Here's a little more info straight out of an "informant report", take it as we have, as an unverifiable claim...

It is but one tiny piece of the puzzle we have been solving.

"I visited the Bundaberg site in 1998 (XXX-X). Now the D.O.D/D.E.O didn’t know where the entry location (That goes for most locations), So It was up to me to find the location. I spent 3 months searching the Bundaberg airport grounds for an entry point, The only hints I had was that an airport worker in 1977 had found a way in through a drain when his Jack Russell chased a rat in there and in 1996 or 1997 two men found there way through a air vent in a paddock near XXXXXXXXX. The men were arrested for trespassing on commonwealth land and the air vent was blown in.

So I spent a good 3 months looking for a way in. Finally I found a storage drop-off report from 1980 saying that on the 15-06-1980 32 crates of SLR & Ammunition were to placed in to storage at site XXX-X via end Runway run off Entry and the last report from site XXX-X was it closure on 01-11-1980. So I looked over & over the end run way (with planes zooming 10 feet over head). Then one day while exploring the XXXXXXX I came a sixer (tripped) in to a depression in the ground. I thought “This is odd” this depression was a perfect 1.5 X 1 meter rectangle and I thought to myself “About bloody time”.

So I rang my supervisor and said “I found it but I need dig it out” he replied “well go down to the local hardware store and buy yourself a shovel”. I said “What really” he replied “Yep I'll get you a van for cover and someone to help you”.

So 2 days later this old fella turns up with a council van and we get to work, took us 7 hours to dig this thing clear. We walked in and it was like a blast from the past. The first thing I saw was a old jeep, then I turned to my left in amazement an whole ww2 war bird just sitting there. I was like kid in a candy store, I walked past the plane and pointed my flashlight to the right and there was two planes with there wings folded and no tails, there was a clipboard on the wall referring to the planes.

Then my eyes peeled open it said A6M-52 (ZERO). The clipboard detailed the runs and specs like max speed, weights, ceiling and weapons. I was in shock what were ww2 jap zeros painted in U.S colors. I asked the old fella about the planes. He said he had "helped in removing jap aircraft painted in u.s colors from a place called eagle field or something like that".

So we walked down more and found a pair of wings to my left, to my right and further up just aircraft parts. I walked back down turned right and there’s this corridor with 7 rooms.

Room 1 was full of ammo, same for rooms 2&3, Room 4 had 20-25 50 Cal. Browning Heavy Machine guns lined up across the wall and then 60 crates of 303 lee Enfield 10 to a box, Room 5 40 creates of bren guns 5 to a box and 50 crates of 303 L-E, Room 6 had 100 crates 8 to a box and a heap of ammo, Room 7 same as rm 6.

So walked out and to our left to see what past the jeep and there’s a row of old hospital privacy screens so we pushed open these screens and there’s a wall of bombs stacked all the way up to the ceiling. The old fella said “better not light up then ah” so we walked down this wall of bombs (They were fat as 44 gal drums) to the end and there’s these huge crates. I said “what do think is in there” he said “Planes”. OK then. When we were about to leave he said “wait I forgot something” he runs back with 2 ammo boxes and I said “come on put them back” he said “when are they gonna use them”.

So we fill in the hole and he drives me back to the hotel, just as I get out he said “Oi here use as a doorstop” He hands me this 6 pound solid shot I said “thanks & goodbye”. I never saw that old fella again. So the next day I faxed my report and flew home."

For more information on the Bundaberg saga, see our old Australian Bunker Project page on Bundaberg:

http://www.australianbunkermilitarymuseum.org/abp/Bundaberg.htm



Attached Image

[herkman]

The make and break points on a zero are as follows

Tail section behind cockpit

Front at engine firewall

Mainplane and cockpit is all one.

Wing tips can either fold up or come off.

The P40 is conventual

The wings are shown on the drawing as separate units, which means if they are from a zero, then they must have been cut off.

The story on the SLR's and ammunition is a bit sus, as I doubt if by 1980 anyone would be authorised to drop them off, and how did they get in and know where to get in.

Next question this structure must have been built in the early stages of the war, how come there is no record and why was it built, it looks to be fairly large and would have been built by civilians.

If DOD new about it in 1980, why is DOD now reluctant to move Col

[Warhawk]

I guess, aside from the USAAF Aircraft, is some intrepid soul should trawl through the ADF Serial records looking for that magic word "Bundaberg"


IE: 41-25111 Kittyhawk A29-83 ET435 75SqnRAAF Assembled 14/02/1942 FF Aus 9/03/1942 Ex-US as A29-83 Apr 1942. Crashed at Bundaberg

Only shows that we need more people researching doesn't it.(As I've only come up with one :o )

Alternatively one could seek Peter Dunn's Oz at War for any crash info.

http://home.st.net.au/~pdunn/rofqld.htm A few Bundy Crashes there. Lots of 8SFTS Anson crashes there

As for the americanas,.... nil Bundaberg per Aviation Archaeology

That's all from me.

Need someone to grab the A50 Bundaberg SHQ Station file to have a better look or perhaps we should be looking at the RN FAA later in 44-45????

It just doesn't surprise me at during or at the end of the war they just bulldozed airframes and wreckage into terra firma (sounds of Archerfield Quarry ring in my ears)

But I'll leave it to you guys

Gordy :unsure:

[penders]

Heard a rumour the other day that alot was bulldozed into a hole and buried at the western end of the runway at Amberley. Makes you wonder what other treasures lie underground never to be found.

This post has been edited by penders on Dec 8 2007, 09:17 PM

[ABMM]

As for the aircraft specific breakdown points, I've got no idea - it's not my area of expertise. The report detailed above might even be a hoax. I just don't know at this stage. We do have four hard core informant reports dating from the 1970s through to the late 1990s and none of these four blokes are known to the other.

Talking about the bunker itself, Col is absolutely correct - we have found no tender documents, "buildings and services" files, plans, photographs or disposal records relating to such a large-scale site at Bundaberg, but this not unusual as the National Archives online database only catalogues around 10% of the total holdings at this time. The types of records mentioned above are not available elsewhere.

We have found files detailing demolition tunnels under the airstrip at Bundaberg and I have even spoken to the council worker who later filled them in in the 1960s.

We have found references to an air raid shelter inside one of the hangars at BDB.

What we DO have is our radar data as well as a massive collection of generation 1 aerial imagery covering the site and spanning the war years through to the present day.

Even if we take these fantastical informant reports and other anecdotal evidence out of the equation, we are still left with a large underground feature onsite. We have verified it's not an underground fuel storage or sewerage system tank. It's definitely not the wartime demolition tunnels, so what is it?

[herkman]

As the P40 is alleged to be complete, the the aircraft is highly likely to not be RAAF.

As the zeros could only really come from the USAAF at Eagle Farm, then it looks as if they too would have been moved by road.

Very unlikely if anyone there would know about the storage area, I mean it is hardly in the local area of Eagle Farm.

If the story is true about the lodging of yet small arms in 1980, then somewhere in defense planning, must have known about the area in question.

The only way to resolve this is to dig, if the "44 gallon" sized containers really exist, and if they are explosive, but I have yet to see from WW2, bombs by that description. Perhaps they are aerial depth changes.

Now we need to dig, let me see where did i put that spade.

Also put a post on the Gunnies site, see if they come up with anything.

Regards

Col

[Joe Barr]

RN FAA aircraft records were generally trashed after the War and for many years people have been searching photographs, log books etc to try to reconstruct aircraft histories. Ray Sturtivant and Mick Burrow of Air Britain have produced the latest book on the subject and it's more comprehensive than anything earlier. I'll have a look through it but it will take time. It's possible some aircraft were scrapped in Qld and it's always possible something could have been quietly hidden away but most FAA aircraft destroyed around Australia at the end of the war were dumped at sea under the terms of Lend-lease and to make life interesting for generations of trawlers! .

Joe

[Rod Farquhar]

It's not the first of April is it???
First point , guns and ammo are never stored together.
Second point .303 rifles were all disposed of in early 60s replaced by SLRs.
Third point. Bombs are not stored as described, even in dire circumstances, consideration must be given to inside and outside safety distances.
Fourth point. Having gained access to the site why did they not look for and find the actual entrance that must have existed? Surely everything wasn't passed in through the ventilation shaft.
Happy hunting boys.
Rod. ^_^

[ABMM]

At the risk of an earnest enquiry degenerating into a pissing match....

First Point -
See above for my statement -
"Here's a little more info straight out of an "informant report", take it as we have, as an unverifiable claim..." The SLR Rifles do sound a little far-fetched to me but who knows how the SASR UCW projects of the 1960s and 70s emplaced "stay-behind" caches? I don't.

Second Point -
Our COMPLETE information package was reviewed by Coffey International. Their recommendation to defence was to look into the site further, Hence our forthcoming round table meeting with the local council and Defence.

Third Point -
Explain the .303 Vickers MMGs and Owen Machine Carbines recovered out of a mine shaft near Charters Towers. Such was a favoured method of disposal.
Perhaps disposal by abandonment inside an underground room which was subsequently covered over was as well?

Fourth Point: Bombs WERE stored as described - for reference see AWM image ID NEA0191

"Northern Australia. C. 1943-11. This is one of the first photographs released showing RAAF 1000lb bombs in bulk underground storage in a northern supply area. Checking the bombs is Leading Aircraftman W. H. Huitson of Yarram, Vic, squatting between transport trolley rails."

No inside or outside safety distances appear to have entered into the equation in this particular case. I would also draw your attention to bulk explosive storage magazines at places such as 1CER at Marrangaroo. During wartime there were large amounts of HE and CWA munitions stored in bulk storage underground - the safety regs as per distances, etc appear to have been quite a bit looser than today.

Fifth Point: If the sketch attached to the informant report in the post above is to believed, there are references to entrances being "caved in". The "informant" states he entered down a set of stairs that were buried, but not destroyed. He later re-buried the stairway. The only other entry point I can see which might be viable is a ventilator.

I ask in the interests of sensible discussion that "general procedure", "SOPs", "Everyone knows that", etc. type comments be looked at by everyone in a WARTIME context, not the SOPs and regs of the RAAF of the 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s. It's a different kettle of fish.

EDIT/S: Attached image as HTML image code for AWM Record NEA0191 wasn't working

This post has been edited by ABMM on Dec 9 2007, 06:01 PM

Attached Image

[ABMM]

Hi there,

Our bundy project made the news. We have been able to get Defence to run a thorough geophysical survey on the site and three of our staff had to scramble for a snap meeting with Defence representatives in Bundaberg this morning.

Things are looking up for the Bundaberg Bunker Project. I'll keep you updated as more info rolls in.

The latest story is here:http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/01/31/2150692.htm

and further info on the bundaberg issue can be found here: www.abmm.org.au

Cheers

This post has been edited by ABMM on Jan 31 2008, 11:43 AM

[Luig]

Intriguing. Hope it goes well enough (the search) so that everyone is satisfied whether or not the bunkers exist. And yes it does look odd seeing all those "1,000lb" bombs stored like that. Beer kegs eh. :blink:

[ABMM]

Gentlemen, it looks like we may have a goer for the Bundy Bunker Project!

I've just had word that the meeting was extraordinarily positive. Our ex-army cartography instructor did a full aerial interp for the Defence team, showing surface remnants and tracking changes to the site from approximately 1936 to present day, while the rest of the team went over the scant archives evidence and presented our ground radar results.

According to my team mates who attended this morning's meeting, Defence will work with us directly on surveying and if possible, excavating the site. This positive cooperation is unprecedented after the massive amount of ridicule, resistance and ignorance our team has encountered over the last decade from the general public and officialdom alike.

The 250lb beer kegs are on us! B)

That's one site ready for exploration, only 250-odd to go.

[ABMM]

Well, it made several news agencies apart from the ABC yesterday and today.

Here's the latest from Bundaberg:

[URL]http://www.news-mail.com.au/storyprint.cfm?storyID=3762488[/URL]

Secretive visit for military mystery

01.02.2008

By Larine Statham

PRIVATE meetings at undisclosed locations may seem secretive, but it could signal the start of an investigation to answer one of Bundaberg's biggest mysteries - are there bunkers beneath the airport?

Suspected of containing bombs, ammunition and aircraft, the bunker mystery could be uncovered as early as July if Department of Defence investigations continue as planned.

Bundaberg City Council Deputy Mayor Mal Forman said "it was great the department took the time to respond to council's request", by sending two defence consultants to meet with them in private this week.

The Department of Defence is thought to have told council they would conduct a three-part investigation  researching the history of the site, liaising with people who made statements about the bunkers and using ground-penetrating radar and magnetic based sub-surface detection equipment.

With technological work expected to be put to tender, Australian Bunker and Military Museum (ABMM) directors Tristan Rankine and Daniel Hultgren said they wanted to work with Defence to ensure the best outcome for the community.

While Defence representatives would not corroborate details presented to them by the not-for-profit organisation, Mr Hultgren said they did not disagree with, nor dismiss, the information contained in photographs, radar results and more than 25 statements made by veterans and members of the public.

"There is no conspiracy here," Mr Hultgren said.

"We have spent the last seven years working on this and a lot of council time has been spent looking into it too."

Mr Rankine urged anyone with information to come forward.

"Defence has assured us that members of the public who come forward will not be prosecuted for having entered the airport in the past," Mr Rankine said.

Federal Member for Hinkler Paul Neville also met with the two Defence representatives on Wednesday, where he "impressed on them the importance of putting this matter beyond doubt".

"We have a duty of care to ensure the airport is safe," Mr Neville said.


I'll keep updating as more info comes in.

This post has been edited by ABMM on Feb 1 2008, 11:25 AM